kingfisher

[lars]

Hello All,
I am a "green behind the ears" new member to this web site with a frustrating dilemma. I have two sets of boat plans I have purchased over the past couple of years. One set for the Selway- fisher 17'6" EVENING SWAN and another set for the !6' Laurent Giles KINGFISHER. I love the KINGFISHER for all its traditional style, but wonder how comfortable the interior cabin space will be. The EVENING SWAN will be more comfortable without a centre board intruding and has more head room, but I am trying to convince myself the small KINGFISHER will work out despite tighter accommodation. Has anyone out there had any experience with the Laurent giles Kingfisher? I would really appreciate some guidance from anyone with experience with the KINGFISHER.
lars.

[Mike]

Hi lars

Welcome to the site. No need to worry about being new - we are all new here - the site's only been up since 1 October 2008, just a few weeks in fact. :)

Although I have no experience with either of the boats you have plans for, I would say this about your very common problem (and it is a shared problem for everyone I know of when making a final decision on a design to build):

1. Any boat of the size you are looking at will have sitting headroom only, so your decision must be based on acceptance of that limiting factor;

2. Although 18" doesn't sound very much in terms of length, it represents a little more than 10% of overall length difference in this case. The key question when you are talking about 'comfort' has to be in the cabin length (except in an open boat, of course). Note that our own build is a 10% stretch overall but the cabin is stretched quite a lot more than just 10% - see our welcome page (http://www.backyardboatbuilding.org.uk) for more on that.

3. Since you have both plans, I would suggest you work out the useful cabin volume of each design. Provided headroom is about the same, this will give you a very fair indication of which will be the more comfortable inside the cabin. Interior useful space equals comfort. The more the better.

4. Finally, I would say that neither a 16' nor a 17'6" boat can ever be comfortable enough in some circumstances, such as living aboard for extended periods. Not having standing room kills that immediately. But both can be comfortable enough for spending a few nights aboard, camping style.
Hope that helps. The only thing I would add is that it is usually best to go with your own gut feeling about such matters. The size of a man's gut can be a limiting factor as much as his girth or beam. ;) And one man/woman's comfort is another's cramped discomfort, believe me.

Best wishes

Mike

[lars]

Thanks for the good advice Mike. I think a cabin mock-up of the two designs would be a good idea. Something to do during our long Canadian winter. Thanks for the email.
Lawrence

[Mike]

No problem, Lawrence, my pleasure - and just my own view of course.

A cabin mock-up seems a sound idea. You could use a thick cardboard or even cheap hardboard to set one up. I would suggest you build the larger cabin mock-up of the two designs and mark up on it the smaller one, including any difference in headroom.

Don't forget that it is always possible to modify a design somewhat, provided you first consult with the designer in question to ensure you are not detracting from his design to any significant, possibly unsafe, extent. I found Paul Fisher extremely helpful in this regard, as you can see from the sketches he made for me of the proposed mods. I feel the result in our case is a lovely mod of his Rona Yawl (he has dubbed it 'Rona Yawl Mark 2') that will make Jeannette and I very comfortable on our planned voyage.

Yes, I believe Canadian winters are pretty darned cold and available build time is thus reduced, especially when epoxy is to be applied. That said, there's nothing to prevent you from cutting out your bulkhead panels and the like so that you are ready to go when it warms up a little.

Best of luck with your decision and your build. Please put up some photos and information for others here once you are on your way. In this way, we can all learn from you and offer any helpful assistance you might need along the way.
Best wishes :bighug:

Mike

[Audrey S]

Lars

I agree with the "skipper" do it in hardboard first, it's cheap n cheerful, but will allow you to experiment with headroom etc, I intend constructing a complete wheelhouse etc in hardboard, experimenting with shape and the like, then using the hardboard as templates when the final cuts are required

hth

Regards

Audrey S

[lars]

Hi Audrey
I just tried formating a reply to you and somehow I lost it and perhaps I might have mistakenly posted it!! And I think I can build a boat??! Well I'll try again so if the first and unfinished reply went through some how just bear with me.

Good idea on the mock-up approach to indecision on a boat plan. I'll attempt a 1:12 model first. That should give me a good perspective of size and all that.
Selway-Fisher is the home builders' best friend in all respects. The 17'6" EVENING SWAN from SF is a great design; very pragmatic cabin space etc., but I love the looks and the practical size of the 16' Laurent Giles KINGFISHER. And there is the trouble. I'm stuck on the aesthetics of the thing I guess. Should I build with my heart or should I surrender to pragmatism of the brain?
Mike provided sound insight and cautioned against grand expectations when considering a small pocket cruiser. So there may not be a perfect solution to my indecision. I'll keep you all posted.
Lars

[Mike]

Lars, the 'lost' reply is something that crops up frequently and is usually a result of using the 'Preview Post' button, then forgetting that and thinking you have posted. The longer the message you've composed the more annoying it is when you lose it.

How do I know this? Oh, it's happened to me at least a dozen times. And always when I've been careful enough to use that 'Preview Post' button. The way I do it now is one resolution: never use that previewing facility. Write your message and use the 'Submit Reply' button straight away. You are then taken to the post. Click on the 'Edit' button and correct any mistakes or improvements you want - and then 'Submit' again.

If anything goes wrong when doing the new, improved, 'preview', at least you don't lose all that work. Only an edit can get lost, which is usually no big deal.

You wrote: "Mike provided sound insight and cautioned against grand expectations when considering a small pocket cruiser. So there may not be a perfect solution to my indecision."

Thank you for those very kind words. Much appreciated, I assure you. There's no harm in taking your time over a choice between two designs you like very much. Most of us go through that last agonizing patch where we like two rather different designs and vacillate for some time twixt one and t'other. In my experience, there is no perfect solution. It usually ends up being a case of follow the gut instinct.

We look forward to seeing and hearing about the build, whichever choice you make.

Best wishes

[Andrew E]

Hi Lars, if you are stuck on the looks of the L-G design, you will kick yourself forever if you build the other one.
There is an L-G design to your length, the Sanderling, but it is a custom design for a builder and not available for sale.
Bearing in mind that the cost of plans are a small fraction of the build, it might be an idea if you asked for a 'stretch' from them. Or do your sums and look at the 20ft Sandpiper. That would solve the cabin size problem.
16 to 20 ft is a quantum leap in build though and would displace 1500kg, possibly giving you trailing problems.
On the build methods, S-F use stitch and glue, fast but messy. While L-G use a more conventional method which must be more expensive with the framing, backbone and stringers. I, personally, am no fan of the use of epoxy other than as a glue and coating material. I have plans for Devlin's Winter Wren, but after cutting out the ply I realized that my doubts about the design were mainly due to the S&G method and didn't procede. ( ply came in useful for other things!)
Again personally, I find S-Fs small cabin designs not to my taste, one needs to go up to 20ft before they start to look attractive.
On headroom, it is often said that if you cannot have full standing, settle for sitting rather than in-between. A biggish companion way hatch helps a lot.
Not an answer, just my thoughts,
Best,
Andrew

[lars]

Hi Andrew,
I enjoyed reading your observations on boat building. I really appreciate the notion of going with ones dream ( not trying to be to dramatic here) and not always getting hung up on everything pragmatic and sensible. With no disrespects to the outstanding designer Paul Fisher I do agree with you about many of the Selway-Fisher small pocket sailer designs. To accommodate suitable headroom he designs rather high cabin structures which visually distacts. Darn those aesthetics. It's hard to find the perfect balance in small boat designs I'm sure. I love the LG Sandpiper, but room to build is my limiting factor so I'll stick to something around 16' for now. The LG Sanderling is a good size, but I already inquired and understand it's a design is for a professional builder. Barry Van Geffen of LG did suggest that I stretch the Kingfisher frames a bit to get a longer boat, but I'm afraid to monkey too much with the origional. Good insight into building with stitch and glue. All in all Andrew I found your comments to be very timely and reassuring. Thankyou very much.
Lars

[Mike]

Lars

A very nice post thanking Andrew for his advice. Trust me when I say he knows what he's talking about, does Andrew E.

Best wishes

[George Waite]

Lars
A scale model is always a good idea if you can build one. I am using a 1:17 model for reference during my own build (without drawings). Mikes advice re pre-fabrication of components indoors during inclement weather is good. My better half has taken to refering to my boat as "the flat pack dory"
Good Luck
George

[Mike]

Ha ha! :rofl: Not a nice thing to say to you, George. I am shocked! ;) I'm sure she means no offence. Sounds like a wind up to me. Maybe she's a little jealous of the attention your Dory gets. Flowers, chocolates perhaps?

[Andrew E]

Hi Lars, my choice of the Cape Henry 21 (http://www.dixdesign.com/ch21.htm) was because I was enamoured of the original Cornish Crabber 24 (http://www.cornishcrabbers.co.uk/crabber_24.html). The first boat was ply, but when I inquired, they were only selling GRP kits, no plans.

Time passed and I liked the Shrimper (http://www.cornishcrabbers.co.uk/shrimper_19.html), if a bit cramped. Still GRP, though the first 11 boats were ply. Then I saw the Cape Cutter 19 (http://www.dixdesign.com/inspir19.htm), and while investigating, came across the Cape Henry, essentially a blown up CC. Ticked the boxes, and now the weather is warmer I can get on a bit faster (BTW this is over nearly 30 yrs). I just love the look of the trad cutters, even if the one I am building is actually not trad under the water line.

Space is always a problem, I am lucky to have a lean-to garage big enough accommodate a 21ft build.

If you could get to 19ft, there is always the Golant Gaffer (http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/details.asp?Name=Golant+Gaffer) (exquisite) or the Cape Cutter, but, as said, more work than the S-F designs.

Andrew

Roger Dongray, designer of the Cornish Crabber range, sized the Golant because of his garage and the length of strip planking available. (we can get it here up to 40ft!)
A

[Mike]

Again I say, knows what he's on about does our Petty Officer Andrew E. ;) The CH 21 is a design I looked at myself. Fantastic boat by Dudley Dix - but did not, unfortunately tick all of our boxes. She came very close, though.

Best wishes

[lars]

Andrew,
Many a day has passed by when I would love to live in the U.K. so I could indulge my indecisive whims and prowl about at various boating facilities and perchance upon a prized, real-life boat such as the sandpiper, evening swan etc. and make visual contact!! At this point I think I would be happy to tape a broomstick to the family bathtub and call it my yacht!! Something good will come of these two sets of boat plans I have tucked under my bed. I am using Tom Naismith's stoic commitment to building his 20' Sandpiper (Water Craft mag.) as inspiration. I'm resigning to the reality that this boatbuilding obsession is a rather outrageous pleasure.
Thank you once again for your guidance.
Lars

[Mike]

Nah, don't go to sea in your bathtub, Lawrence. Too unstable and underpowered. :D

As to living in the UK, I would certainly not recommend it at present. It's been thoroughly stuffed after years and years of neglect by the chinless wonders, the pigs snuffling their noses in the vast trough of public money, that we've had running the place - and that's of both major political persuasions, Tory and Labour. I wonder how many Brits would gladly swap with you over there in Canada right now? My guess is that you'd be inundated with offers.

Why do I have the feeling that you are very far away from any boats you can touch and feel? Jump on a train, or catch a flight, to the most popular sailing port on your coastline and get touching and feeling, my friend. It cannot all be done over the Web, you know. Sooner or later you must come to terms with realizing your dream - visualization becoming reality - or with recognizing that it will not amount to anything 'concrete', for want of a better word. There's absolutely nowt wrong with daydreaming. Darned healthy exercise of the mind. Peaceful, comfortable, perfect.

You have two very good boat plans. If you really want to build one, go for it. Choose one design, get it out from under that bed, and, no matter how slowly or how budget-constrained, start making sawdust, mate. Otherwise, stick with the dream alone. It's a place shared by millions and it is indeed a gloriously outrageous pleasure to be there as often as is possible. ;)

Here's a rather nice piccy of a Sandpiper to cheer you up!


300

Don't quite know where I got that pic from but she looks kinda sweet as she ploughs into a strong wind under reefed main only - the Sandpiper, that is. I wonder if those two sailors are a married couple or illicit lovers engaging in a bit of maritime foreplay? One's mind, as I said, is a rather 'kewl' place to spend time in every now and then.

Best wishes

[Andrew E]

Mike, just a comment, the link to the Cornish Crabber 24 is to the current version (well, was, as they went bust. Not sure if the new lot are building it) The original Crabber was more like a larger Shrimper. Still sitting headroom, not the standing in the latest. I had a good look at one of the early ones. A guy sailed it down to Vilamoura (!) and showed me around. Very nicely put together (GRP hull with ply decks)A bit later they used GRP decks. Pricey, but they always have been.

Lars,
Forgot to say, there is nothing so satisfying as sailing a boat one has made oneself, every little bit the eye rests on has a story. Of course, one always has ideas for 'slight' improvements so the process never actually stops.
Andrew
BTW. Boat building is not a hobby, more of a disease.

I have not lived in the UK since 1975 and share the view that it is a failing society. But I think the Torys have a better mindset than the stalinist current bunch of crooks. They certainly can't do a worse job.

On the model front, why not try a stretch? Space out the frames as suggested to give an extra foot or so. It might give you an idea of how difficult (or not) a full size go might be.-A

[Mike]

Mike, just a comment, the link to the Cornish Crabber 24 is to the current version (well, was, as they went bust. Not sure if the new lot are building it) The original Crabber was more like a larger Shrimper. Still sitting headroom, not the standing in the latest. I had a good look at one of the early ones. A guy sailed it down to Vilamoura (!) and showed me around. Very nicely put together (GRP hull with ply decks)A bit later they used GRP decks. Pricey, but they always have been.Yes, it's from their current website, Andrew. And the price includes VAT at the new, lower rate (if only temporary). So, I guess she's in production now. Way beyond my budget but a very impressive boat. I reckon she'd be even more impressive in timber - but just my rather biased view.

Lars,
Forgot to say, there is nothing so satisfying as sailing a boat one has made oneself, every little bit the eye rests on has a story. Of course, one always has ideas for 'slight' improvements so the process never actually stops.
Andrew
BTW. Boat building is not a hobby, more of a disease.Spot on! I agree. Nothing to beat that feeling of having become familiar, really close up, with a boat you built with your own hands. And it is indeed a kind of disease. In this respect, it is similar to aviation. Once that bug bites ...

I have not lived in the UK since 1975 and share the view that it is a failing society. But I think the Tories have a better mindset than the stalinist current bunch of crooks. They certainly can't do a worse job.I for once do not agree entirely with you, Andrew. My view is that New Labour was a very crafty wheeze intended to steal the Tories' thunder for long enough to allow the perpetrators to feather their nests for their lifetimes. I realise that is cynical but how can one be less than cynical these days? And I take the view that, unless the Tories are leopards that have changed their spots, they are likely to do just as bad a job of it. Methinks it is time for a sea change. The way things are going right now, it won't be a long time in coming. Frankly, I have a sneaking admiration for the French - always have had. They lopped off the heads of the 'Let them eat cake' brigade and they don't hesitate to organize a protest when it suits them.

When training in Toulouse, I saw two protest marches. Loved it! Drums banging, trumpets blaring, police standing watching with big cheesy grins on their faces. Now that's the way to do things in my book. I envy you living among them. And wish we Brits had the same kind of stomach for stirring up dissent.

On the model front, why not try a stretch? Space out the frames as suggested to give an extra foot or so. It might give you an idea of how difficult (or not) a full size go might be.-AI am advised that a 10% stretch is nothing really and often improves the hull speed and handling. I wouldn't hesitate to stretch a design by that much, though I would still check with the designer as a matter of common courtesy.

Best wishes

[lars]

Mike and Andrew,
All round great advice from two battle-hardened warriors! Your dead on Mike; damn the torpedos! Full speed ahead! I have begun building a model of the Kingfisher, taking measures directly from the plans and building as if I am building in full size. Thanks Andrew for your reassuring advice on going with ones dreams and thanks Mike for the firm coaching to just get on with it! I'll post a picture of my model project when I eventually get it done and I promise no more indesicions from this dry-land daydreamer!

Aprox. 1900 km to the Pacific and 4500 km to the Atlantic from my humble Prairie abode.
It's been great getting everyones feed back on all things important. I am now going to focus on my mission as well as care for the family, make an honest living and hopefully take a little time once in awhile to stop and smell the roses.
Lawrence (Lars)

[Mike]

That's the spirit, lars me old mate. :approval: I had a feeling you were getting a bit bogged down and confused.

I for one would love to see a photo of your model when you've done it. Take your time and enjoy it. Don't make any promises to yourself that you can't keep. And remember we are all out here to help if we can. So that isolated place on the Canadian prairies is only ever a click or three away. :lam:

I think I said at the start of this thread that we've all been in the place you're at now. Choosing the boat you want to build is often confusing. However, if you really enjoy building a boat, you will undoubtedly build another ... and possibly another. It is, as Andrew says, a bit of a disease. But it is a very satisfying disease.

Oh, and don't smell the roses ... smell that lovely freshly cut wood. Feel it too and think about how valuable its qualities have always been to us humans. Good wood is lovely stuff to work with.

Sincere best wishes