Japanese Pull Saws - Rutlands Special Offer

[Mike]

Just to give you all a heads up on a good buy, I thought I'd let you know that Rutlands (http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psPromotions.cgi?promo=23) have a special offer available on a pack of three Japanese Pull Saws.

Here's a photo from the email I received (click on the thumbnail to see a bigger image):


701

I ordered some yesterday afternoon and they arrived early this morning. 'Fast delivery' ain't the words for this one. The saws are just great. So any of you who've been thinking about getting a pull saw, now's your chance to do so at a great price. Delivery is £5.95, making the whole deal just £55.90 and on your doorstep the following day. Wow!

By way of comparison, the little one I've been using is about the same size as the smallest of the three here and costs about the same as this three-pack just to replace the blade alone. For £49.95, you get two more saws, both a lot bigger than my previous one. All three have superb Japanese blades but with plastic handles. The only thing you don't get are bamboo handles, which is no big deal.

First class offer in my book. It's the blade that really counts, not the handle, and these blades look identical to the one in my little job. If you are really keen on a better handle - which I am not - then you can always make one up yourself.

Happy hunting, guys 'n gals.

Regards

[jwboatdesigns]

For those who are wondering, the three comprise a flush cut saw (very thin flexible blade, ideal for the close work we often find in boatbuilding), the middle sized one is a combination saw with crosscut teeth on one side and ripsaw on the other, and the big one is a coarse tooth crosscut for heavy work. I have all of these, use them all the time and love them to bits. Once you are used to the short pulling action they are fast, have a very fine clean cut and run rings around the usual handsaw for a lot of work.

Highly reccommended

John Welsford

[Ricsudukai]

For fine work they are unbeatable, I have never met anyone that has not found these one of 'those' tools. You know, the tools always at the centre of the shadow board and grabbed first.

Interesting observation on the reason for a pull saw as opposed to a push saw. In western practice our trade skills revolved around methods of securing the work, a vice effectively, and leaning against it. But in eastern work the practice is to hold the work with feet and stops, and draw the saw towards you - hence the fundamental difference. Neither approach is wrong, the end result is similar. The eastern ideal is the thinnest kerf possible = the least effort required - and there are thousands of years historically of fine cabinet and joinery work leading to that realisation. In western history the equivalent hand saw for cutting timber with fine kerfs is probably the tenon saw, the coping saw and variations of fret saws are found in all regions, but the direction of cut does tend to be culturally significant.

As always, the way you learn is the way you like mostly. I discovered the Japanese and other Asian hand tools and techniques while working at Mastercraft level - it was, and still is a revelation.

[Mike]

Agree with most of what you say above, Ric. However, it is my observation that the Japanese pull saw is vastly superior to our own finer handsaws. I am inclined to think it has a lot to do with far greater control of the blade in pulling it rather than pushing.

Certainly, the end cut achieved is smoother and I seem to be able to control the cutting angle of the blades far better.

For boatbuilding at whatever level, I would go for the pull saws every time rather than the type we Westerners have used throughout the centuries. And when you're on a good thing, it is usually best to stick to it.

Interesting piece about the historical reasons for the difference, which I enjoyed very much. Thank you for that. :approval:

[Ricsudukai]

Hi Mike. Yes control is what it is all about. As I mentioned before, if you want to see the ultimate refinement of design in say a chair, look to the Chinese and similar old cultures. There is only just the right amount of timber used in every part - not a skerrick more. And this is the same with the tooling and joinery techniques. Not a single aspect has not been refined, and further refined to the greatest possible limits of the materials, and human ingenuity.

While we can now do astonishing things with CAD and CCM to almost unbelievable tolerances - that is not comparable.

Western hand tooling tends to be bulky and crude - but in a very real sense it has a mere two or three centuries of development compared to thousands from cultures such as Korea, China, Japan (who take their culture from China) and India. The skills in fine metalwork in particular was key to developing the fine tooling in the east, and in that the west was much less capable until pretty recent times in a broad historic sense. The nearest we westerners have come is the razor saw - basically a very fine tenon type saw relying on a stiff spine to support the blade. As the blade in many types can be mounted either way the pulling action was used in the west. But it was not usual - nor does that type of saw work against a surface or very deep without the spine getting in the way.

For nipping off bungs and trimming very close to a surface there is no substitute for a good fine pull saw. I have introduced my son to them, he is only a few months until completion of his apprenticeship as a builder. Within a week of him bringing his folding pull saws to work, five other carpenters and a couple of apprentices have bought the same folding Japanese pull saws.

They are really that good.

[Mike]

Ahah, yes! I have had a couple of invitations to try the new folding pull saws (just recalled the name of the brand - it was 'Silky' and its range was called 'Bigboy' - the mind boggles, eh?;)) but the ones I've seen are sort of general purpose things that can do a super job on tasks like tree pruning as well as general carpentry work.

I'm pleased to hear these pull saws are beginning to find favour with those in building trades. Dunno about Oz but it's high time here in Blighty that the trades got back to taking far more pride in their work. I believe that standards went too far the other way (sloppy workmanship, I mean) with the use of things like air or battery powered nail machines and many other power tools. They have their uses, I accept that, but hand tools always seem to bring out the best skills in people.

Perhaps the thing I like most about the Japanese pull saw is that it can help a careful amateur to achieve a finish close to that achieved by a skilled artisan. Certainly, I would not be without them myself. From the moment I first used one, I was astonished at how precise and easy to use they really are.

I spent a few hundred quid on a bandsaw yet find little need to use it for the finer jobs. The bandsaw has become my tool for ripping down large stock timber. Most cutting on plywood can be done very accurately using a pull saw.

Just my own view, of course, but I would recommend their use to every backyardie. Well worth the modest prices they sell for and cheap enough to replace when worn out.

Regards

[George Waite]

Mike/Rick
And there was I thinking that the pull saw was just a bloody sight easier to use in the hot, sweaty, humid environment from whence it came.

[Mike]

Now what environment would that be then, George? I seem to recall that Japan regularly gets snow in winter and has a rather nice, temperate climate - I could be wrong, of course.

You really do crack me up sometimes, mate. Love your very dry form of humour.

Have you actually got a pull saw, George? If not, it's time to give it a try. I'll lend you one of mine if you want. ;)

[George Waite]

Mike
As rick points out the pull saw is not a tool restricted to Japan and who is to say that it originated there. I saw my first one in Colombo over 50 years ago when my father pointed it out to me in tha local shipyard. A number of the shipwrights in the yard where I was apprenticed also had them as they had worked in the far east during wartime and brought them back with them. They were also to be found in the toolbox of many a ships carpenter when we had a merchant navy, including the man that helped me build my first wooden boat (a Falmouth Bass boat) in 1969. Like many ships chippies he used to build a small boat during long voyages and was as accurate with an axe as some are with a spokeshave. As for the hot and humid bit I can still remember watching two lads in singapore cutting a length of railtrack with a two-handed hacksaw. They were sat on two stools (one either side of the rail) under an umbrella with a tea tiffin by their side. the job must have taken more than 2 hours but the temperature was around 40deg and 90% humidity. They were a study in energy (and fluid) conservation.

[Mike]

Interesting information, George, though judging by some tools I have bought that originated from places in the Far East other than Japan, the pull saw's development may well have begun outside Japan but in my view the metallurgical skill to perfect them was not evident other than in Japan or perhaps China.

It is the Japanese-made pull saw blade that I find so wonderful to use, not one from Colombo or India, or even China. I would not buy another Anant plane, for example, after trying one out. And I wouldn't buy a pull saw even today that was made in China.

It seems to me that the skills honed by the Japanese in making superb sword blades are apparent in the way they make their pull saw blades. And that is what I am advocating here in using them for boatbuilding.

You didn't say if you own one yet, George. If you don't then I would recommend getting one to do the planking on your dory. I know I shall not be without Japanese pull saws in my own toolbox 'cause they are simply amazing little blades that do a vastly superior job on fine woodwork. Little waste by way of sawdust, less energy spent in using them, and a much better finish on the piece in hand.

[George Waite]

Mike
Yes I have one, but it has seen better days and I will be taking advantage of that offer you posted, very good value as you say. On the subject of weapon/tool metallurgy the swordsmiths of Spain and the Middle east produced some fine blades in centuries past. There was also an element of luck in the choice of ore from which your Iron/Steel was made as some ores contained elements occuring naturally that we add in a measured manner today, so it was not always some mystical skill in producing a blade but a natural accident. The famous Chinese Bronze swords that were actually Nickel Bronzes being an example. If you want to contemplate real skill think of how much went in to making chain mail.

[Mike]

I checked the Rutlands website, George and that offer is still available. Best prices I've seen for a long time.

I agree about Spain's swordmakers but know little about the Middle East. As to chain mail, I know what it is but nowt about how it was made. I can imagine it was difficult to link all those little metal rings together back in those days. Not much use nowadays, of course, and our lads in Afghanistan need better protection than they have at the minute. Maybe a modern version of chain mail would afford better protection against IEDs. Waddya reckon? Could be an earner for the man who comes up with a better suit to protect from bomb blast.

Regards

[Jamie Allen]

i have been married to a Japanese lady for the last 28 years and found Japanese tools, not just the saws, on my first trip to Japan. one of the best saws I use is called a Dozuki which has a back on it like a tenon saw with a very fine blade and super fine teeth 24 or 28 tpi. It is amazing for really fine work. I also have a set of chissels and the edge they hold is very sharp and I only use water stones to sharpen them, up to 8000 grit.

[Mike]

Hi Jamie

Welcome to BBJW. Japan is one country I haven't been to but was always interested in. I worked for the Japanese embassy in Sydney many long years ago and found them the best employers I've ever known and the most friendly, and caring, people.

I have enormous respect for them as a nation, though that view was not common among Australians at the time.

It came as no surprise to me really that their tools had some features about them that were unique and of the highest quality.

Interesting first post, Jamie, and I look forward to hearing more on the subject of sharpening, especially with waterstones, which is something I have not yet tried. I still use what my father did; oil stones. And I haven't moved away from that, simply because I knew it worked well. Have heard many say that waterstones are vastly superior, so must give them a try.

Best wishes