Philosophical excuse to build a boat.

[Ricsudukai]

"For the truth is that I already know as much about my fate as I need to know. The day will come when I will die. So the only matter of consequence before me is what I will do with my allotted time. I can remain on shore, paralyzed with fear, or I can raise my sails and dip and soar in the breeze."

Richard Bode
First You Have to Row a Little Boat

"How calm! How still! The only sound the dripping of the oar suspended."

William Wordsworth

Twenty years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you did not do than by the things you did do. So, throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. - MARK TWAIN

I woke this morning and realised there is far too much written about boats than I can ever read or comprehend in what ever time I have left in this life. On thinking further about just how many very knowledgeable and far better qualified people there are out in the world at this very moment writing and advising so many of the publications I enjoy (and quite a few I've never heard of) I came to the inevitable conclusion that the world really doesn't need another point of view.

So of course I decided to write something.

If there is ever a cogent argument as to why we should do this boat-building thing I think Mark Twain nailed it - we become old when our regrets outstrip our dreams. It's that simple, and has little to do with how old you are in years. Some of the most emotionally decrepit, physically frail and mentally wizened people I know became that way by becoming old in their heads, deciding at some terrifyingly lonely dark 3 am hour that work, mortgage and the gamble of good health and big super payouts on retirement is all there is to look forward to - from the age of marriage and family responsibility they enter a strange pastel world of grey people loyal only to the workplace - regardless of the school sports day or production.

Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing
-- absolutely nothing --
half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.
-Kenneth Grahame Wind in The Willows

I wish I had decided seriously to build a decent cruising boat ten years ago. I was stronger, good health, the potential to work full time and a place to build, and I didn't know enough to be frightened silly by the ridiculousness of such a selfish decision. I gave up motorbikes because I felt (still do) it was not sustainable when the kids needed shoes and a bed each - in fact the only aspect of my life I would not stop was boats. I went to sea at 10 days old myself but I let my kids grow a few weeks past that, every available moment I shovelled them into whatever floating thing was to hand, dinghies, small runabouts and yachts, commercial boats etc. If they were tall enough to hold on to the tiller - they did. Then I decided to go fishing, I lost sight of things for a little while, assuming that to make more money one just had to work more. Unfortunately sleep even became a nuisance - let alone family or personal well being.

There are three sorts of people;
those who are alive, those who are dead,
and those who are at sea.

I do not say that the family must be abandoned or financially ruined in a single-minded attempt to live on a million dollar Cat with hot and cold running crew and a dishwasher.

"At sea, I learned how little a person needs, not how much." -Robin Lee Graham

Just that there must be a life balance that is the absolute priority - not some 5 bedroomed three toilet ugly box with a two hour commute to the office only seen in daylight during holidays and a TV in every bedroom to ensure no member of the family can possibly build any meaningful relationships. When I was young a 40W fan for cooling and a 40W flouro light in the kitchen was pretty flash - now I paint homes with 5000 watts of down lights and 15KVa aircon units. and full colour plastic reproduction plants on the split level party paving next to the astroturf driveway with parking for 6 V10 American SUV's.


Whatever happened to building what you need, not what some lifestyle programme tells you is 'in'? The same with boats - I see 'cheaper' cruising cats start at around $400,000 up - you don't need to spend that to go round the world, let alone out for a day sail. Most of the yachts and gin palaces in my local marina never move - some are welded to the bottom by the undergrowth to be quite blunt.

You are not going to find the ideal boat.
You are not even going to have it if you design it from scratch.
-Carl Lane

"I start from the premise that no object created by man is as satisfying to his body and soul as a proper sailing yacht."

Arthur Beiser 1978
The Proper Yacht

Maybe I am a bit of a throwback, but the JW Saturday Night Special attracts me greatly - I have a dozen boat projects in various stages of non completion, I always keep at least a couple of boats in usable condition, because without constant positive experiences it is really easy to lose sight of the goal. Living in a part of the world that allows sailing and boating all year within reason only helps this, and keeps the enthusiasm level high enough to keep grinding through the dull bits towards the glittering prize at the end of the current project.

"The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails." -William Arthur Ward

So I you are finding it hard to justify building a small - or not so small boat remember this :- You will not get younger, but you may get fitter. Good health is impossible to guarantee past the next few seconds and can leave you in the blink of an eye. Time is the only true wealth you have, most people spend it like water - remember when it took ten years for the last school term to pass, and a century for Christmas eve to pass? After 40 time straps a jet pack on and proceeds in extreme fast forward - if you don't believe me go and visit an old friend you used to hang out with at 20, and see who says "it feels like only yesterday.." first. As far as your brain is concerned - it was.
And most of the older friends I have/had did the work for 40 years bit, mortgage, get on the piss on Saturday, watch the kids leave, retire and not even get the big trip done before dropping off the twig or developing diseases of the body and courage that keeps them inside 11 months of the year - and often a disturbing compulsion to play golf. You cannot know that you will survive to retirement - let alone get a decade or three to play with after.

"It's scary to have a 30 foot wave chasing you. If you are steering, you don't look back. The crew looks back for you, and you watch their faces. When they look straight up, then get ready!" -Magnus Olsson

I will finish with the driving philosophy I have rigidly stuck with - as master or crew. Told you I was taught in a classical manner, by those who learnt their seamanship when starting the engine was considered a sign of professional failure....

"A ship is different from anyplace on earth. it's dangerous at sea, as you've surely grasped by now. Dangerous, and separate. A captain has absolute power out there, extending -- and it still does -- to death. To trust a man with the lives of others is a grave thing. Only three principles make it work: authority; responsibility; accountability.

"Authority is the root of command. We delegate it only for a time, only in exercise of an office, only as defined by custom and law. Never as an individual, never for very long, never as if by right, never without bounds.

"Responsibility defines what a man is trusted with, with the ship, with the conn, whatever. So it's all clear, up front, and everybody understands his duty.

"To be accountable means to be subject to justice. To punishment, if you will. If you fail your trust -- are derelict in your duty, misuse your power, make a professional error -- you will pay a price.

"In our profession, this accountability is absolute. When a naval officer accepts authority, he knows he will answer for the actions of his ship, whether or not he is directly and personally responsible in the way a civilian court would understand. For it is his responsibility to know and govern all that goes on aboard her, her flaws, her limitations, as well as her strengths.

"If error occurs, no matter whose, the fault is rightfully and inevitably his. Each commander knows this and accepts it as part of the job. No previous service, however meritorious, can make up for it."

David Poyer
The Circle

Says it all really.

[Mike]

Hey Ric

You are a most unusual Australian, my friend. And that is most definitely a compliment if ever I wrote one.

What enormous sensitivity you show in stringing together the post above. You restore my faith in humanity by acknowledging in such laudable fashion the things that matter most in this world.

Good man. I thoroughly enjoyed that read. It warmed me and cheered me beyond measure. Have some more reputation, my Aussie friend, and all power to the elbow upon which you rest in order to share those great thoughts with us all. They are thoughts of beauty and of stature.

I will try much harder to think in the same way having read them.

Well done, sire, and thank you. :bighug:

Kindest regards

[George Waite]

Ric
Some deep philosophy eh. Shame you gave up motorcycles, I find that being frightened ****less by other peoples stupidity on a regular basis keeps me sharp.

[Ricsudukai]

Thank you for the kind words.

Oh I never gave up Motorcycles George, just owning them and living that lifestyle.

I applied my then philosophy on life balance, and while It gets fine tuned on an ongoing basis still do most of the time. (With a few notable exceptions here and then.) I am not the motorcycle athlete I was in my 20's but rode too far and too much to suffer any illusions on my ability. I do not feel now that I would have been no. 1 perhaps, but if you are competing at the elite level in any sport without a great sack full of self belief you are defrauding your sponsors and yourself. Mick Doohan said it best when congratulated by Michael Scott in the '90s on coming second in Moto GP, snarling "second - that's just the first of the losers!!" It was something I did well and pursued Enduro riding up to state level, and was moving up to being a National level mostly sponsored rider, when an industrial accident in 1988 left me with a permanent back injury. That wasn't a very good two or three years I must admit, and I found alcoholism a very poor substitute for the freedom of competitive and recreational riding. So I stopped that and control my drinking pretty well. Apart from when I drink too much anyway.

It was my first experience of mortality and physically imposed restriction. I eventually got some more bikes, but miss the ones I got rid of back then, they were unique and unlikely to be found again. I am indifferent to the highly strung racing four strokes now - I see where they are coming from, but to match or exceed the abilities of the well sorted two stroke are more like a Ferrari - highly strung and always in the shop. I used to do tens of thousands of k's on my twostrokes - and they got used hard too, but the latest YZF thingies seem to have a lifespan based on minutes.

I stopped owning bikes when it was obvious that there was no family benefit in owning them, I lived in a remote area with lots of wildlife and found riding through the 'roo's and the idiot tourists on tight roads with big trees in the dark an unacceptable risk, with a ten year old and a six year old at home I made the value judgement at the time. If I bought a motorcycle now it would interfere with sailing and boat building, so that is the latest consideration and value judgement.

I am fortunate in having some friends with interesting toys and overly trusting natures. I find the Ducati SP4s - with termi's and chip, and full ohlins and carbonfibre everything rather nice. Even if I can only realise about 50% of it's true abilities. I am less impressed with his KTM RC8 - it's way above my comfort and skill level - awesome yes, fun, well not for me cos I was crapping myself by second gear. I'm just not good enough for any litre class bike - and I know it.

I chose the bike I want years ago, and it only gets improved and made out of better stuff. I would buy, should I win the lottery of course and only after getting a lot of boats, an Indian Enfield Electra. Possibly the big bore kit too. Sounds odd, but then what I want from a bike now days is the same as from a boat - I want the journey to be memorable, and I don't want it to be finished because I arrive three minutes before I leave. I have not been in a hurry now for a few years and while I enjoy the odd very wet blast in one of my beach cats - I want to enjoy the journey more and more. Plus an Enfield has about three moving parts and can be completely rebuilt using two spanners, a screwdriver and six inches of used fencing wire. Unlike when I last checked the shims in a GPz 900, which took four hours without time to fiddle with the body work. Any more than 30 hp today is a total waste if you require a drivers license for more than the next 24 hrs - given officer plod's habit of hiding the revenue machines, sorry, speed cameras behind the only tree for fifteen kilometres on a ruler straight road one hour from the nearest house.

I guess I'm old school by both nature and nurture.

[Dan Calvert]

Hi Rick,

Really enjoyed your philosophying.....no matter how many times I read/hear

"Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."
-Kenneth Grahame Wind in The Willows

it brings a smile to my face. http://backyardboatbuilding.org.uk/forums/images/icons/icon6.gif

We will all spend a long time looking at the lid and no-one ever drew their terminal breath and said "Gee I wish I spent more time at work........".

Spent a week in Japan just before Easter, fantastic place to visit but working sixteen hours a day, day in day out must be soul destroying......Amazing how such a high tech economy seems to be inefficient in the way it uses labour....they could spend a lot more time building boats and sailing and still have an enviable economy but success seems to measured in hours worked.

"and often a disturbing compulsion to play golf" Personally I tend to agree with those who think that golf is the best way to ruin a good walk, but on the other hand there is nothing sweeter than a perfectly stuck drive that just sails straight down the middle of the fairway......and remember "a bad days golf beats a good days work". Great Grandad fell dead on the golf course when he was really young, so grandad never played golf at all on the grounds that it would kill you. Dad plays three or four times a week and he's 85 and batting on for his century........


My first bike was a TY 80 Yamaha, bought a second hand 1973 750GT Ducati in 1978 and still have it, hoping the kids or grandkids might get some fun out of it one day. Always had singles (love the Ducati singles but have a soft spot for the amazingly capable SR Yamaha) and twins. Just love the simplicity. I like bikes, the engineering solutions are out in the open. To me good motorcycle engineering is more aesthetically pleasing than any art - it is beautiful AND functional. Not a fan of the two strokes, no argument they are probably better bikes than the four strokes, but the sound of a four stroke just does it for me.....and maybe the a lethal 1972 Honda Elsinore with a power band 200 rpm wide that came on and off like a bolt of lightning might have had something to do with it. Didn't ride much during the "kid years" but a few years back Sarah insisted she buy me another bike - the second new vehicle we ever had, gee that was soooooo exciting picking that up. and who is lucky enough to have a wife that buys you a new bike and insists on being pillioned......

"I want the journey to be memorable," - that is such a wonderful statement

Anyway am very new to this boat building thing but am enjoying the ride. I like making beer as well, grew our first hops this year, have just made the first couple of batches with them a very satifying pastime

[Ricsudukai]

Hi Dan, and hope you enjoy the experience of boating.

While motorcycles seem a bit off topic, they are not. Riding a bike by it's nature is an individual pursuit, and the self reliance and pretty extensive skill set take similar dedication to at least gain some reasonable competence.

It takes some time to realise, but in the end there is no point charging headlong towards some possibly unattainable future goal when there is so much to see and be in the now. I and my wife want to be on a cruising boat of some sort in the next few years, in the meantime we sail and study and have changed our lives dramatically yet again towards this aim. We are not going to have a massive boat, nor a massive pile of cash to splash, but we are getting a clearer picture of what we need to have if we want to cruise the Southern and N. W. coast line of Australia, and possibly NZ in time.

In the meantime it's a question of keeping the faith in a much smaller and far cheaper way.

I did mention that there is so much good writing on boats, and bikes (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance really made an impression in the soft clay of my 17 year old mind), and of course the breathtaking ability to communicate with like minded individuals all over the world in real time via the interweb - don't we forget so fast just how stunning a thing that is! I've even got a phone here, that has windows on it, as well as a 2 Mpixel camera, internet explorer and a 2 Gig micro SD card, and was secondhand for around a hundred bucks. I can even make phone calls on it!! If I remember to pay for credit anyway. Its about a thousand times faster than my first computer and has around ten thousand times the memory - and it's a phone.

Wow.

There is another aspect of my boat building philosophy that allows me to listen to an opinion politely, strip it of any value as far as I am concerned, and move on. Fundamentalists of any type basically miss the whole point - there are many, many ways to get to the same end, and none of them are actually wrong. Whether you choose to shape the solid timber sections for your perfect copy of a 19th century cutter with no tools other than your teeth, or should you be convinced that nothing but GRP, or Steel, or Alloy, Or Ferrocement, or ply/foam/ steel armature, or Poly, or bamboo and a hollow log - or any other method you can think of - they are all valid.

Just because I can build a boat from solid timber doesn't mean I want to, but I truly appreciate the method and the skill of the designer and the builder. Repairing and working on some pretty varied boats over the years has taught me tolerance. The rabid, puritanical, frankly obsessive nature of some on other continents and forums suggests that in some minds at least - there is only one true way. That is probably true for them, but we all have to make decisions based on what is practical in our reality and within our own means and resources. To build a classic framed and planked boat is maybe just not practical in a small suburban shed, so finding a material and design that suits the builder's skills base and level is more important than fine tuning tunnel vision!

The biggest single advantage that ply and epoxy offers the home builder is stitch and glue - if the designer gets the panel shape right, and the panels get cut right, the hull just happens almost despite the builder, and even a hull made over a form or strong back using bulkheads with two or three panels laid over to make a delightfully stiff multi-chine hull is not that hard. I also know some boiler makers who if they ever do get around to building a boat would not consider anything other than plate steel or alloy. You do what you have to to get on the water.

I don't like GRP much, but those of my boats built from the stuff seem to just keep on going, while my timber ones seem to need a lot more TLC. Probably because of the varnishing. <sigh>

Later, I will post some photos of a most outstanding small yacht, build entirely from timber found at the dump and in skips, by a very interesting older bloke I am privileged to call 'friend'. This to illustrate an earlier point on frugality and making what you want out of what you can find - not what people tell you should be done nor the way you 'have' to do it......

[George Waite]

Rick
You should not associate with Boilermakers, they will get you a bad name!

[Mike]

George

Spoken like a ... well ... like a boilermaker. Are there no ends to your talent, I ask myself.

And you two Aussies better stop waxing lyrical about motorbikes and flaming golf. Tell ya wot - I'll stop going on about aircraft if you stop going on about motorbikes, Japanese workers and bloody golf. :rolleyes: Oh, and I disagree about the way we should build boats. There is only one way to build a boat: watertight. Anything else just won't do, now will it?

As this is a 'General Chitchat' forum, I guess I'm going to have to put up with reading all this stuff about two-wheelers of both the road going and the grass buggying varieties. :gun2[1]:

[Ricsudukai]

"Voyager upon life's sea;
To yourself be true,
And what'er your lot may be,
Paddle your own canoe."

Dr. Edward P. Philpots 1844

Well Mike, it's all about acceptance and getting to where you want to be - whatever it takes.

I do agree, as a basic principle you might start with keeping the water on the outside of the hull.....

Every trade has something to offer, the point of this thread is to perhaps look a little deeper into why we might pursue this boat building lark. It is quite reasonable for someone who has used metal in a trade for years to consider that material first - it's what you know. There are much less home built GRP boats than other materials, because GRP lends itself best to mass production. Of course a builder will consider wood, probably ply first. And the very knowledgeable will always consider Ferro - a brilliant method if done correctly, a total nightmare if not.....

I find that other hobbies and interests often create a hybrid vigour when applied to boats. I would contend that all knowledge is good, but it is understanding that is crucial to informed action.

I personally find golf a bit weird. I have no interest in it other than avoiding it. I have hundreds of square kilometres to hand of unique coastal heathland and shoreline that beats any walk through an artificial grassland attacking a helpless little white ball and beating it with a club 'cos it won't move on it's own or something. I don't mind other people doing it, because then there is less chance of them hitting me if they get rid of any pent up aggression by abusing that little white ball - but nup, not me.

"Men who cannot enter into the mind of the sea, cannot for the same reason enter into the mind of ships."

John Ruskin

Motorcycles are generally an individual pursuit - like boats. The mindset has to be similar or you won't succeed at either.

It is much much easier to build your own boat than a bike, so there is another good reason to do so. I am happy to look at a Harley with all the Screaming Eagle catalogue attached - but it has none of the wonder and bling factor that a true hand crafted thing possesses.

I still believe that the best part about all the modern materials, glues, finishes and methods is that literally anybody at all can get onto the water in a well designed very fun boat for very little money indeed.

I can build two National level Herons complete, rigged and new sails - for the cost of one Indian Enfield Electra. So that is why I will not be buying a motorcycle in the foreseeable. And I get to ride Ducatis, KTMs and many other brands if ever I want because I have friends with trusting natures and excellent insurance! :ohyes:

"No one likes an ugly boat, however cheap or fast."

Roger Duncan

[jwboatdesigns]

You can add to those, items like --
" No one ever died regretting they'd had too many adventures, stopped too many times to smell the flowers, or taken a day off to go to the beach "

and

"Just DO it"

John Welsford


"For the truth is that I already know as much about my fate as I need to know. The day will come when I will die. So the only matter of consequence before me is what I will do with my allotted time. I can remain on shore, paralyzed with fear, or I can raise my sails and dip and soar in the breeze."

Richard Bode
First You Have to Row a Little Boat

"How calm! How still! The only sound the dripping of the oar suspended."

William Wordsworth

Twenty years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you did not do than by the things you did do. So, throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. - MARK TWAIN

I woke this morning and realised there is far too much written about boats than I can ever read or comprehend in what ever time I have left in this life. On thinking further about just how many very knowledgeable and far better qualified people there are out in the world at this very moment writing and advising so many of the publications I enjoy (and quite a few I've never heard of) I came to the inevitable conclusion that the world really doesn't need another point of view.

So of course I decided to write something.

If there is ever a cogent argument as to why we should do this boat-building thing I think Mark Twain nailed it - we become old when our regrets outstrip our dreams. It's that simple, and has little to do with how old you are in years. Some of the most emotionally decrepit, physically frail and mentally wizened people I know became that way by becoming old in their heads, deciding at some terrifyingly lonely dark 3 am hour that work, mortgage and the gamble of good health and big super payouts on retirement is all there is to look forward to - from the age of marriage and family responsibility they enter a strange pastel world of grey people loyal only to the workplace - regardless of the school sports day or production.

Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing
-- absolutely nothing --
half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.
-Kenneth Grahame Wind in The Willows

I wish I had decided seriously to build a decent cruising boat ten years ago. I was stronger, good health, the potential to work full time and a place to build, and I didn't know enough to be frightened silly by the ridiculousness of such a selfish decision. I gave up motorbikes because I felt (still do) it was not sustainable when the kids needed shoes and a bed each - in fact the only aspect of my life I would not stop was boats. I went to sea at 10 days old myself but I let my kids grow a few weeks past that, every available moment I shovelled them into whatever floating thing was to hand, dinghies, small runabouts and yachts, commercial boats etc. If they were tall enough to hold on to the tiller - they did. Then I decided to go fishing, I lost sight of things for a little while, assuming that to make more money one just had to work more. Unfortunately sleep even became a nuisance - let alone family or personal well being.

There are three sorts of people;
those who are alive, those who are dead,
and those who are at sea.

I do not say that the family must be abandoned or financially ruined in a single-minded attempt to live on a million dollar Cat with hot and cold running crew and a dishwasher.

"At sea, I learned how little a person needs, not how much." -Robin Lee Graham

Just that there must be a life balance that is the absolute priority - not some 5 bedroomed three toilet ugly box with a two hour commute to the office only seen in daylight during holidays and a TV in every bedroom to ensure no member of the family can possibly build any meaningful relationships. When I was young a 40W fan for cooling and a 40W flouro light in the kitchen was pretty flash - now I paint homes with 5000 watts of down lights and 15KVa aircon units. and full colour plastic reproduction plants on the split level party paving next to the astroturf driveway with parking for 6 V10 American SUV's.


Whatever happened to building what you need, not what some lifestyle programme tells you is 'in'? The same with boats - I see 'cheaper' cruising cats start at around $400,000 up - you don't need to spend that to go round the world, let alone out for a day sail. Most of the yachts and gin palaces in my local marina never move - some are welded to the bottom by the undergrowth to be quite blunt.

You are not going to find the ideal boat.
You are not even going to have it if you design it from scratch.
-Carl Lane

"I start from the premise that no object created by man is as satisfying to his body and soul as a proper sailing yacht."

Arthur Beiser 1978
The Proper Yacht

Maybe I am a bit of a throwback, but the JW Saturday Night Special attracts me greatly - I have a dozen boat projects in various stages of non completion, I always keep at least a couple of boats in usable condition, because without constant positive experiences it is really easy to lose sight of the goal. Living in a part of the world that allows sailing and boating all year within reason only helps this, and keeps the enthusiasm level high enough to keep grinding through the dull bits towards the glittering prize at the end of the current project.

"The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails." -William Arthur Ward

So I you are finding it hard to justify building a small - or not so small boat remember this :- You will not get younger, but you may get fitter. Good health is impossible to guarantee past the next few seconds and can leave you in the blink of an eye. Time is the only true wealth you have, most people spend it like water - remember when it took ten years for the last school term to pass, and a century for Christmas eve to pass? After 40 time straps a jet pack on and proceeds in extreme fast forward - if you don't believe me go and visit an old friend you used to hang out with at 20, and see who says "it feels like only yesterday.." first. As far as your brain is concerned - it was.
And most of the older friends I have/had did the work for 40 years bit, mortgage, get on the piss on Saturday, watch the kids leave, retire and not even get the big trip done before dropping off the twig or developing diseases of the body and courage that keeps them inside 11 months of the year - and often a disturbing compulsion to play golf. You cannot know that you will survive to retirement - let alone get a decade or three to play with after.

"It's scary to have a 30 foot wave chasing you. If you are steering, you don't look back. The crew looks back for you, and you watch their faces. When they look straight up, then get ready!" -Magnus Olsson

I will finish with the driving philosophy I have rigidly stuck with - as master or crew. Told you I was taught in a classical manner, by those who learnt their seamanship when starting the engine was considered a sign of professional failure....

"A ship is different from anyplace on earth. it's dangerous at sea, as you've surely grasped by now. Dangerous, and separate. A captain has absolute power out there, extending -- and it still does -- to death. To trust a man with the lives of others is a grave thing. Only three principles make it work: authority; responsibility; accountability.

"Authority is the root of command. We delegate it only for a time, only in exercise of an office, only as defined by custom and law. Never as an individual, never for very long, never as if by right, never without bounds.

"Responsibility defines what a man is trusted with, with the ship, with the conn, whatever. So it's all clear, up front, and everybody understands his duty.

"To be accountable means to be subject to justice. To punishment, if you will. If you fail your trust -- are derelict in your duty, misuse your power, make a professional error -- you will pay a price.

"In our profession, this accountability is absolute. When a naval officer accepts authority, he knows he will answer for the actions of his ship, whether or not he is directly and personally responsible in the way a civilian court would understand. For it is his responsibility to know and govern all that goes on aboard her, her flaws, her limitations, as well as her strengths.

"If error occurs, no matter whose, the fault is rightfully and inevitably his. Each commander knows this and accepts it as part of the job. No previous service, however meritorious, can make up for it."

David Poyer
The Circle

Says it all really.

[Dan Calvert]

Hey George - I have known plenty of boilies over the years, they have great skills and are often very creative!

Rick, Thanks for the words of encouragement, great to see where you get your inspiration. Timber boats do it for me, the same thing made from glass or steel or ferro cement just isn't the same. i think its because wood was the main material for building boats for thousands of years and so that is what a "proper boat" should be made from. But also timber is something that was grown, it was a living substance, somehow that seems to give the boats a personality. Stupid I know, and sure a GRP will outlast and maintenence is ****** all by comparison, but its just so much harder to get emotional about it.

And then there is how the boat looks. As far as I can tell JW designs boats with a specific purpose in mind and with a clear undersanding of how it will be used and the type of person who will use it. And what happens? most of his boats are beautiful to look at (to my eye anyway). Form follows function and they have everything you need and nothing you don't. Its like a 1974 desmo single..... I think Dr T and JW came from the same mould.

Frugality is a great thing, when there is not much money the solutions get so much more creative. And its a bit kinder to the planet......My mate built himself a mudbrick house for less than people pay for a 4WD with all the bling. Its one of the reasons i like this boatbuilding lark - a few bits of wood, some epoxy, paint, a few tools, some sparks (yeah I know its not traditional, but its still cheap) and hey presto you can make a boat. Ok you still have to fork out for an outboard, some sails, and a trailer but you get a lot of bang for your buck and I'm hoping for some fun sailing as well!

[Mike]

:iagree:with what Dan says above and I think that just about sums it up for me. Well done, Dan. Right on the button in my never humble opinion. :approval:

Regards

[jwboatdesigns]

I did a lot of miles on motorcycles, some of it on a very early Ducati 250. Sadly it shook bits off itself, leaked oil like a British bike, had electrics almost as bad as Lucas ones and as a result I did not keep it long. Went and bought a Bonneville, same problem x 2 ( two cylinders, twice the problems) and eventually saw the light and bought a Kawasaki Avenger which in dead stock condition, original tyres and brakes was faster around the local race circuit than the fully streamlined AJS 7R that I'd been riding.

Aircraft? I'm a long time fan of anything that flies, but THIS has to be where its really at in terms of adventure.
http://www.virgingalactic.com/

John Welsford

[Mike]

... . Aircraft? I'm a long time fan of anything that flies, but THIS has to be where its really at in terms of adventure.
http://www.virgingalactic.com/

John WelsfordJohn, I can just see you perched inside that VSS module in a spacesuit. :rofl:

Me? Well, I've always felt that the higher above ground level one flies, the less exciting it gets. At my age, there is a distinct reluctance to do what I would have unhesitatingly done 30 to 40 years ago - not sure whether that's cowardice or just plain old common sense.

I flew with a skipper once whose early flying was as an RN carrier pilot - an ace by reputation. I aked him what flying onto and off a carrier deck was like. He replied that it was amazing fun while he was under 25 years of age. He then married, had a family, and kind of saw it as something he would prefer never to do again. That I can understand. :D

I would even now fly low level and at high speed. That is, in my view, an absolutely amazing experience, seeing the earth flash past so quickly and enjoying the adrenalin rush. Each to his own, I suppose, but space travel would be no turn-on for me. And I'd likely need several changes of underwear for every journey. Not so much an adventure as a near death experience. Ha ha.

[Dan Calvert]

This is my idea of flying

http://www.google.com.au/#q=legal+eagle+ultralight&hl=en&prmd=iv&source=univ&tbs=vid:1&tbo=u&ei=YrX7S8DoCZDQceT6pYEC&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=9&ved=0CEAQqwQwCA&fp=c359b28564cb3c5e

[Mike]

I agree that it's flying of the better variety, Dan, but it just ain't fast enough for my liking. Try doing much the same thing at about Mach 0.9 and you'll see how exciting low level stuff can really be. And it just is not the same on a computer sim, either.

Incidentally, a mate of mine in Oz built one of those gyrocopter thingies. Amazing little machines. I watched him take her up on the maiden flight and was asked if I wanted to have a go. I looked at the single bolt holding the freewheeling rotor blade in place and thought better of it! Old, bold pilots, or the dearth thereof, kept springing to mind - and you'll note I am now quite old. :D

Regards

[George Waite]

and this from a man who admits to flying one of Cessna's push me-pull you's!

[Mike]

Err ... two of Cesnna's push-me-pull-yous in fact, George. I have flown both the 337 (retractable undercarriage - goes up like a duck's feet under the pusher engine's nacelle) and the earlier 336 (fixed undercarriage and a pusher donk assembly that swings open on hinges to access the aft cabin like a cargo door on an Antonov and is as noisy inside as Hell).

Both of them interesting machines to fly and safe enough provided you think of them as single-engined aircraft - well they are centreline thrust anyway so just forgetting there are two is easy enough - and you don't retract the gear on the 337 until at least 500' above the ground. :D

Sounds like you've spent some time on board one. Is that so?

[George Waite]

Mike
Yes sir, Hitched a lift from Trinco to Columbo in Sri Lanka in 87. The aircraft was on COIN duties as the Tamil problem had just erupted. The pilot said that we were lucky to get off as the rear engine was known to get a bit hot and bothered and refuse to contribute to the take off power requirements.

[Mike]

George

As you would know, the US military version was called a Bird Dog. It had armour plating to protect the pilot from small arms fire and came with under wing pylons for rockets.

I didn't know they were used for counter insurgency ops in Sri Lanka.

As to the rear donk being susceptible to overheating, it would seem inevitable given its placement - though I didn't encounter such problems in Oz.

That rear donk was the critical engine. If it failed on take-off, you lost a bit more than 50% of available thrust AND the hydraulic pump that powered the undercarriage system. The gear doors when half open were like two massive air brakes. Thus, if you lost the rear donk while the gear was cycling, you were going down no matter what. A sort of controlled but rapid descent into terra firma. This is why the CAA recommended leaving the gear down until 500 feet above terrain. Gave the pilot just a few extra moments to look for the flattest bit of ground to flop onto.

I actually witnessed an accident of that precise making. Looked spectacular, though the pilot did manage to climb out in one piece from a demolished aircraft. :rolleyes:

[Dan Calvert]

"I agree that it's flying of the better variety, Dan, but it just ain't fast enough for my liking. Try doing much the same thing at about Mach 0.9 and you'll see how exciting low level stuff can really be."


Hey Mike - I'm pretty relaxed about slow flying - more time to enjoy the scenery. But Mach 0.9 would be fun...mind, you won't go that fast in a Pilgrim...!

[Mike]

Hey Mike - I'm pretty relaxed about slow flying - more time to enjoy the scenery. But Mach 0.9 would be fun...mind, you won't go that fast in a Pilgrim...!Darn it, Dan! You've uncovered the fatal flaw in my argument. You're right, my good friend. As one ages, the 'need for speed' seems to be replaced with a desire for a more gentlemanly and relaxed approach to life.

I am much more interested in comfort than in speed nowadays and a fast boat is rarely ever comfortable until you get up to the size of floating gin palaces way beyond my meagre budget.

What I like most about Pilgrim, indeed all of John's Houdini derivatives, is their perfectly obvious seaworthiness and their amazing comfort for their LWL.

And, like you, I intend to take things at a sedate pace so that I can have a good look at the areas through which Jeannette and I venture. This is something we could never do when flying except momentarily when landing and taking off.

Regards

[Ricsudukai]

"Life is about more than just maintaining oneself, it is about extending oneself.

Otherwise living is only not dying."

Simone De Beauvoir.

Momentarily sticking to the original title of this post, it doesn't matter how we extend ourselves, merely that to truly live we must do so.

It is interesting that in this eclectic group of individuallists commenting on my feeble scribblings (and copying of great works and statements in quote form, I am not brilliant enough to produce words of great weight and portent myself) we have drawn motorcycles and flying into the mix. Inherently these activities are risky, and individualistic - those of us attracted to aspects of one will always find something to like in the others.

At least we all agree that boats, are good. :)

[Mike]

... . At least we all agree that boats, are good. :)Absolutely, Ric, and they are good for you too.

In fact, to my mind, they do something rather special for those they carry. Were I a religious man, which I am not, I would perhaps describe that 'something special' as an invigoration, or refreshment, of the soul. I think this is especially so, more than doubly so, when one has built the boat oneself.

And you are right in another respect: flying can provide the very same refreshment. However, I only ever experienced that when flying alone.

Regards

[Ricsudukai]

Yes Mike,

I found driving a fishing boat pretty well mind numbing, once the auto pilot is on - total boredom, 400 knots wouldn't be quick enough.

So anyway, to badly paraphrase, I believe a well built, maintained and handled sailing vessel truly the nearest man can get to making a thing of perfection, or as near to it as we can get. And in motion - I can never get bored or tired.

Other than my kids of course, they are of course perfect - at least the best thing yet I have helped make, and I'm only half that build team. They never bore me, nor is it perfect all the time - but they keep me younger, longer. I have infected them with boating by not actually telling them there was an alternative for the first decade or so. They are natural mariners and at some stage in their lives will return to the sea I am sure.

My daughter the other day, who is 17, came screaming out to me to come and watch a 30 minute sailing programme on TV, it featured a wonderful century old schooner in full sail, booming down an estuary on a reach. Her friend though it not strange at all that we should sit for a few minutes to watch this fantasy foam across the screen, but was amazed that the whole family, me, my wife, son and daughter would drop everything to do so.

Definitely a sailing family.

So yes, Boating is good.

[Mike]

Hmmm ... Port Lincoln ... fishing boats? Not tuna boats by any chance, Ric?

In my early days of civil flying, I used to ocassionally fly a tuna spotting aircraft (yes George, another push-mepull-you C337) for a bloke called, if memory serves me) Ray Meagher who was under contract to SAFCOL. Now that was about the most boring flying I have ever done.

We used to spot the fish - well Ray did as I wouldn't have had a clue what species they were - and, when we found the right schools of tuna, we used to guide the boats in to pluck 'em from the sea. This involved me flying around in circles for hours with one donk shut down while the boats we were guiding got the edge on competitors boats before giving them the final, and only true, steer to the school/s. Once the fish were being hauled in on the end of those automatic poles, we bogged off to refuel and do it all over again.

I studied for the Basic Gas Turbine examination and Morse Code while flying around in those flaming circles. Ha ha.

Anyway, I do take your point about skippering a fishing boat on auto-helm. Guess we were members of a similar, if not exactly the same, club.

The rest of your post above I wholeheartedly agree with too.

Respeck!

[George Waite]

To all
I hope you remember all this yuckky metaphysical stuff the next time you hit your thumb with a hammer whilst building your dream boat.

[Mike]

Ha ha ha ha ha. :rofl: That's a 'bring down to earther' if ever I heard one. A typical George remark, methinks. Straight to the point and very much up and down.

You are awful, George, but I like you! :D

[Ricsudukai]

Well the Christian says it's all part of God's plan, The Muslim tells me it is the will of Allah (Allah be praised), a Buddist once told me it is all an illusion and only an internal construct of my psyche - there is no hammer or finger, just my perception.

I say $##@%*^&^!$$(!!@%$$##@$#$##%^!$^$$%&$@#**%^^)(@%&, (deep breath.) %^&*(^%@#$^$^&(%^#!#%@&$%^&$^*$%^7..................

[Mike]

Heh heh. :approval: I tend to say precisely the same thing whenever I hit my thumb with a hammer!

Thus far, the little TB was built without any such mishap, mainly because I haven't used a hammer on her. The one exception was a rubber mallet on a good, sharp, chisel - which was when I made my mistake with the transom and had to find out how hard it was to take off a set epoxied component and then re-glue it in the proper place.

I like rubber mallets coz they don't hurt half as much as a steel head hammer does. ;)

[Dan Calvert]

Yeah absolute crack up George, :rofl:. Out of left field and we're all back in our boxes - at least until Ric went religous.

I got a full tank of religion at boarding school and never could get the hang of it. Haven't used much so shouldn't need to fill up again.

Have banged my thumb with a hammer a few times, i got the hang of that pretty quickly................

[Mike]

Have banged my thumb with a hammer a few times, i got the hang of that pretty quickly................Yes indeed, haven't we all at some time, Dan? I've often wondered what it is that attracts hammers to thumbs.

It can't be religion coz I ain't got any but have whacked me thumbs a few times. Could be some form of that whacky metaphysical stuff, though. Who ya gunna call ... ? :jester:

[George Waite]

Mike
As an apprentice my father made me learn to use a hammer and chisel left and right handed, this did result in a few bruised palms as a Boilermaker holds a chisel in the same way as a shipwright holds a paying iron whilst caulking. However the Lord extracted some revenge from me for my recent irreverence when one of the floorboards that I was painting fell on my hand and has broken my thumb (third time I have broken the same one). I refuse to go to hospital and listen to some idiot juvenile medic lecture me on "being more careful" when the most dangerous thing he has done that day is to take a shave (perhaps) so its strapped up and still useful. Although it did throb a bit this morning when I rode over to survey a big RIB for a Romanian friend (with a view to purchase) 40 knots eh! that blew the cobwebs away!

[Mike]

Ha haha, George. So you reckon the Lord is vengeful, eh? In that case I am really in for it. Hope it's just a busted digit and nothing worse. :D

Forty knots in a RIB! Good grief, George. It seems clear that you still have 'the need for speed'. Good for you, young man. :approval:

Must admit I still occasionally look at fast cats with a bit of a yen to hang off a trapeze and go for the nosedive.

Hope your thumb fixes itself okay so that you can put some planking on that beautiful dory of yours. I am so looking forward to receiving my invitation to attend her launch.

Best wishes

[Ricsudukai]

Yeah absolute crack up George, :rofl:. Out of left field and we're all back in our boxes - at least until Ric went religous.


Every one seems to get religious when the sea gets rough enough.............

[George Waite]

rick
You are dead right there mate, said many a prayer from my waterproof copy of the bible whilst sliding sideways across the wheelhouse leaving fingernail marks down the bulkhead.

[Mike]

Errr ... I don't. I am always far too busy when the sea gets rough enough.

It's a bit like when things go pear-shaped when flying, Ric. You tend to think about those things long afterwards. Perhaps that's when everyone gets a bit religious: when they think about that narrow shave? Still, I don't. I reach for my rolling tobacco and roll another 'nail'. That's not a 'coffin nail' in my case as I've ensured I am to be cremated and my ashes scattered under a big oak in the New Forest.

Ashes to ashes, as some are given to say, which was a superb TV series, by the way! ;)

[Ricsudukai]

Well that's the thing - out wide most don't have time for masks. If you have belief it will show, but so will any strength of character in my experience.

The radio operator in the Titanic stayed at his station, and went down with the ship. Who says what went through his mind, Religion? Fear? Acceptance? I don't know, whatever it was it was fundamental and human.

Some years ago I was told that everyone needs an opiate of some kind, some might use nicotine, some use hard drugs, some use religion, or politics, risk, speed and sex. Lots of other stuff too. The point being that whatever the reason, humans need some form of excitement, acceptance, stimulation and perceived safety or we don't function.

I don't care if you are religious or not - at sea you will become at least a bit spiritual and mystical, and as long as you function I care nothing for your truth, as long as it is real to you.

Whatever you need to do to keep moving when it properly poops itself is fine by me.

[Mike]

Ric

I think I see where you are coming from, mate, but you seem to be getting a little hot under the collar about religion, perhaps with some of the remarks made in this rather interesting thread.

You must not take people's remarks too seriously here. It is all said, I am sure, in a spirit of good, clean, ribaldry.

I respectfully suggest you cool off a little and pull your cheeks apart. The sun is shining and the world is good. We are all meant to be enjoying our very brief time on this planet. Go make some sawdust, cobber. You'll feel so much the better for it.

Meanwhile, I think it's time for this thread to be closed just in case it gets a little too much out of hand. Enjoyed it though, so thank you. :approval: