Plywood

[Mike Pollard]

Decent ply is becoming ever more difficult to source.
Most of the so called 6mm marine ply available cheaply for around £17 is utter rubbish. Baulking at £61 for Okume marine ply (which is prone to rot anyway) I started digging around on the web. I came up with 6.5mm WBP Birch ply at £23.59 plus £20 delivery (any number of sheets) from Wickes.
It came today and appears to be really good - 5 equal lamination, no voids, one face side good enough to varnish, one side with minor imperfections. Good for your green sensibilities too as it's totally sustainable. Pics uploaded this evening.
Mike Pollard.

[George Waite]

Mike
I am having to use 9mm WBP from my local timber yard as the so called marine ply from other sources does not come up to scratch. The yard manager is also kind enough to let me rummage through the sheet stack and select the best.

[Mike]

George and Mike P

There is a thread elsewhere on the site HERE (http://www.backyardboatbuilding.org.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=149) that discusses at great length the differences twixt marine ply and WBP.

George, you saw the ply I am using. What's wrong with that (other than its price compared to this stuff)?

Is not the reality that good quality marine ply has become too expensive for the average backyardie, thanks to rising prices caused by legislation, the collapse in value of the UKP, and a world-wide economic recession that has handed back the economy to the haves and taken it beyond the reach of us have nots?

Here are just a couple of links you might look at to help you with your decision-making on this subject.

1. http://www.buy-plywood.online-timber-sales.co.uk/marine-plywood.html (http://www.buy-plywood.online-timber-sales.co.uk/marine-plywood.html)

2. http://www.buy-plywood.online-timber-sales.co.uk/plywood-grade.html (http://www.buy-plywood.online-timber-sales.co.uk/plywood-grade.html)

As a heads up, I get a good deal from Robbins on my ply by buying 10 sheets or more at a time. It makes a lot of difference. Incidentally, Andy Vowles has warned me that marine ply prices are going up again this month - by how much he doesn't know. Fortunately, I have most of the ply I will need already in storage.

Perhaps it is time for us to get together as a buying unit and do a deal with a firm like Robbins? I am prepared to give it a go if there are sufficient numbers of us to have some bargaining power. As to buying Robbins Elite ply, I have found no source that can come up with a better and more consistent quality. It really is first class, Lloyds approved, BS1088 plywood and, even though its their cheapest marine grade, it is guaranteed for 15 years.

Robbins Super-Elite and Super-Elite Plus, though even more costly, is guaranteed for 25 years. I am buying a couple of sheets of Super-Elite Plus myself. It is all mahogany laminates, beautiful stuff, suitable for cabins and bulkheads as well as hulls (perfect on both outer laminates), exceptionally strong and approved both by Lloyds and the RNLI. Okay, expensive, but its available at a premium. In my view, it's worth the extra if you intend to use it with clear finishes because it will last for longer than I am likely to be around - which is important to me, if to nobody else other than Jeannette.

[Mike]

As a follow up on my post above, I've had a quick word with Andy Vowles of Robbins Timber about this subject. He tells me that Robbins sell WBP birch plywood in their general sales division. It can be a good quality product, depending on the grade bought, and a few people are indeed using it for boatbuilding.

However, the general consensus among the professionals is that it is not good enough for use in larger boats. That doesn't mean to say you shouldn't use it to build small boats, of course, or even bigger boats if you don't worry about longevity of the product. Apart from that, it is considerably heavier than the marine grade plywood, a consideration for those who want to keep their build reasonably lightweight.

I also sounded him out on a bulk discount for our membership. Essentially, he would need a commitment to buy a certain number of sheets on an annual basis. He would then take our proposition to his bosses and see what he could do to get the prices back down to being affordable for us backyardies.

At this stage, we can't expect more than that. There is already a discount available to just anybody who orders 10 or more sheets. But Andy said there are much bigger discounts available depending on the annual purchase of an agreed number of sheets.

Thus, if we want a source of high quality, Lloyd's approved, BS1088, then we have one right here in Bristol. But we would need to make some form of commitment to buy a number of sheets over a period of time. I think that's fair enough. The problem will be in getting sufficient numbers of people who are prepared to put their money where their mouth is - always a problem, of course.

So, who is interested in taking this further? Eh? Come on, speak up or forever hold your 'piece'. Ha ha. :rofl:

Regards

[George Waite]

Mike
First things first, the ply that you are using is first class as should be anything that you purchase from a company as old and as reputable as robbins. I think what is not wideley/clearly understood is the use of the terms "Lloyds approved" and "buit to BS standards". Plywood used for commercial marine construction (and MOD work) can be Lloyds "assured". This means that the manufacturing plant recieves regular visits from a Lloyds Surveyor (or one appointed by Lloyds) and production samples are tested and witnessed by said surveyor who will then allow the manufacture to continue to state that they are Lloyds approved. Lloyds will of course cover their corporate ass by stating on the surveyors report form that the samples were up to spec "at time of test". The problem is that aside from the materials that I have just described there is no international body that can stop anyone putting a "BS Approved" stamp on any piece of plywood which seems to result in those who cannot afford to buy the best getting potl uck/rubbish instead. What is needed in the industry is a system already in use for many years in the metal manufacture/supply industry with proper quality control and traceability.
As to your suggestion of price reductions for bulk buying I think that this is a laudable aim but Andy Vowles is going to have quite a job convincing his boss that a few backyard boat builders like us merit a discount when he is thinking in tons of wood to some of his customers. An example of this was a job that I carried out around 2 or so years ago to re-deck a large linkspan bridge with Ameranth (or Purplehart) and also the re-decking of Hammersmith Bridge in London with Jarra (a wood that I know you are familiar with). In both cases the cost approached or exceeded £200,000 and I had to fight tooth and nail to get 5% discount for a bulk buy. The timber merchants are dealing in a finite (I know it should not be) resource and are making the most of it.

[Mike]

Yes, George, agreed absolutely with what you say above. In a nutshell, Lloyd's approved is a desirable thing if looking for quality in the lay up of the ply. So too WAS the BS1088 stamp but, and it's a big but, that stamp has come to mean very little because of the rogues and charlatans out there who take advantage of lack of enforceability to stick that stamp on any old rubbish.

I deal with Robbins for two reasons. First, they have an outstanding reputation established over many long years - as you know. The second reason is that I get very good service from Andy Vowles in particular. He is knowledgeable, helpful, and extremely honest. In my view, these are things worth paying a premium for. Value for money.

It's like buying one pair of good shoes instead of several pairs of rubbish shoes. Or one really top quality suit rather than a wardrobe full of cheapies. You get what you pay for in this world, don't you agree?

I agree also with your comment about bulk buying. However, in circumstances where anyone can have a discount if buying 10 or more sheets - as is the case already with Robbins - I don't think it impossible to come to some arrangement whereby members of a group such as ours get a slightly higher discount when buying 10 or more.

I would suggest a modest increase, say, an extra 5%, might be achieved. One could always try for more if purchasing was orderly and centralised through the group itself (by issuing a numbered purchase order, for example), especially once the system had worked in operation for some time and had been shown to benefit all parties. I am certainly willing to give it a go if enough of our members are interested.

Regards

[Rich Maynard]

I've just read an article from an old copy of Watercraft about Finnish birch ply, and it too suggested that it might be a good boat building material.
Yes, it's heavier than other plys, but it's denser and tougher and that partially compensates.
I used it for my Selway Fisher Raven canoe, and it was fine. Easy to work, relatively splinter free and cheaper than some marine plys.
Not sure I'll be using it on my 'forever boat' though, whatever that turns out to be!

[Ray Frechette Jr]

It is indeed true that any one can buy a rubber stamp that says BS 1088 on it and apply it to the ply panel.

That being said though. Any retailer of BS 1088 ply should be able to direct you to a web site where Lloyds certiies said panel for certain suses.

In the case of BS 1088 Okoume, Shellman seels a panmel that is approved by Lloyds for marine use in such issues as using on oil rig platforms. It is however not certified for use in hull construction of boats. Shellman has a higher line which is shelmarine which in addition to meeting all of the typical BS1088 standards in construction, each ply is treated with a fungicide to make the wood more trot resistant.

So, the rubber stamp means little. If the reseller is top notch iwth a reputation one typically can trustthey are selling the good stuff as they don't wan their name tarred and feathered trying to make a quick buck selling lesser quality and typically will not carry the junk.

And with a quality reseller, they should be able to show you the Lloyds certification for the panel in questiona nd what it is indeed certified for. IE What uses the certification approves of.

As a highly practical matter, the lower cost Shelman BS 1088 Okoume is fine for use on small craft hat are dry sailed.

I have one outside my house on a trailer that has been exposed to weather since day one and is 6 years old with not a hint of rot or delam on it at all and is the lesser shelman product.

Were I to build a boat that would stay on a mooring I would pony up for the 40% higher price of the fungicide treated one, or opt for lower cost Hydroteck merranti and accept the 20% higher weight of the Merranti ply.