What Paint To use On My Boat?

[Mike]

Some time back, there was a rather peculiar discussion on this website about paints and how they may be difficult to apply, especially when painting over epoxy. One designer, he of Australian birth who is no longer with us and must not be named (and it is most certainly NOT the distinguished Mark Bowdidge), backed up a former, rather troublesome, member in suggesting to others that painting a boat is somehow difficult over epoxy. They suggested that many a boatbuilder had experienced bubbling, peeling, and many other problems

Having now gone into the subject of which paint to use, with both paint manufacturers and boat designers, I thought I would write a few words on the subject to sort this issue out once and for all.

The first point I would make is that doing a good paint job on your boat is largely a matter of reading what the paint manufacturer tells you on the tin or in accompanying leaflets. Only those who think they know it all - or who simply cannot read plain and simple text - are ever likely to run into any real problems.

My second point is that what follows may largely be split into two types of application depending upon whether the boat lives in the water or out of it. If your boat will be in the water all the time, you simply MUST paint it with the more expensive specialist marine paint systems. There is no cheap short-cut. If you take one, then you only have yourself to blame for any problems you may have. So, for a cruising boat - of whatever size - that will be in the water for more than about four days continuously, or for any live-aboard hull, you simply have to go with the years of accumulated knowledge and spend the necessary dosh to do the job right.

The alternative type of application allows more liberty in choice. Again, you might like to go the expensive route and paint your little dinghy, day-sailer, or rowboat, with high quality marine paints. And why not, indeed, if that is what you want? However, for as long as your boat is in and out of the water whenever you choose to sail her, and you cannot envisage any situation where you are likely to remain afloat in her for more than about four days at a time, you can paint in a far less expensive way, as now follows.

John Welsford speaks and writes often in advocating the use of 'house paint'. I discussed this with him in some detail and he advises the use of a primer suitable for painting over wood and epoxy, then two coats of undercoat, preferably of the high build type, and then a careful sanding down of all the brush marks using 220 grit wet & dry paper. He suggests a few drops of detergent (not soap) be added to reduce clogging and the use of warm rather than cold water. Once you have a smooth finish, John suggests two top coats, thinned suitably so that the paint becomes self-levelling.

To check John's advice with a paint manufacturer, I decided to go first to our UK 'biggie', Dulux. John uses 'British Paints' exterior enamel but, bizarrely, that company is Australian and does not supply the UK so far as I can tell. At first, Dulux advised that I should NOT use house paint (in this case Dulux Weathershield) but should speak to another division of the same outfit. Can't say I blame them for this approach in that they don't want to be sued if things go wrong.

I then telephoned the 'other division', International Protective Coatings. As soon as I asked some technical questions, their rep said he would get an expert to call me back. True to his word, the phone rang about ten minutes later and I was then speaking with one of their chemists based in Southampton. He was both knowledgeable and helpful. So, here is the story from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

There is absolutely no reason why you cannot use 'house paint' on your boat - provided it will not be immersed continuously in water for more than about four days. However, when priming the bare wood and epoxy, you must NOT use any of their fancy - and expensive - marine primers. You must use their standard 'Yacht Primer'. This is so that you can paint enamel undercoat and topcoats over it. The key, it seems, is in sticking to one system or the other. It simply won't do to use, for example, a two part epoxy based primer and then use 'house paint' over it. Likewise, you cannot use their 'Yacht Primer' and then paint using the one or two part polyurethane systems.

Thus, for so long as you are going to use exterior enamel paint for the finish, use a yacht primer that will chemically bond to the enamel paint. Simple really, don't you agree?

One final piece of advice from the same 'horse's mouth'. If using Dulux enamels, Weathershield will not serve you as well as the same product formulated for the trade. So, instead of buying 'Dulux Weathershield', get your local hardware store to supply you with 'Dulux Trade' exterior enamel instead. It will last many years longer than 'Weathershield'. Note that you will also have another distinct advantage when using 'house paint', besides it being far cheaper. You get a much wider range of colours to choose from than the vast majority of specialist marine paints. Oh, and it's cheaper every time you strip down and re-paint too. According to JW, using a decent quality house paint and the technique he recommends, you can very easily get 10 to 15 years of use out of your boat before she needs repainting.

Hope this helps with any confusion about what paint to use on your backyard builds.

Best wishes

[Philip]

mike the wet stuff works really well!!!!!:approval:

[Mike]

Phil, I take it you are referring to 'wet n dry' sanding? If so, I have years of experience using it to paint classic cars that I've rebuilt.

It works well, as you say, but sanding big areas - my old Mk IX Jag for example - leaves you with virtually no fingerprints. Good, if you are of criminal persuasion, I imagine. ;)

Regards

[Philip]

mike l thought you would have got my sense o humour by now m8! regards yer m8! phil,:approval: as for paint l use blakes or international for good results!!

[pjl83]

interesting find mike. good of the dulux guys to work out an honest answer for you.

[Mike]

mike l thought you would have got my sense o humour by now m8! regards yer m8! phil,:approval: as for paint l use blakes or international for good results!!Well, couldn't quite make out the reference, mate, so took a stab at the only link to 'wet stuff' I could find. Sorry, Phil, but paint's only wet 'til it dries. :rofl:

Incidentally, I will be painting the first TB using International's 'Yacht Primer', followed by Dulux Trade enamel with the recommended undercoat. We'll see how it turns out. I may have to paint the second using the expensive stuff as that will be a tender to the big'un and we may tow it behind at least some of the time instead of carrying it on deck.

In your case, you obviously already know it's necessary to go with the expensive stuff, not to mention the anti-fouling etcetera. Can't see you trailering Token on a regular basis. :)


interesting find mike. good of the dulux guys to work out an honest answer for you.Yes indeed, Paul, except that it was 'International' who gave me the definitive answers. Dulux really avoided giving me an answer altogether. What I did find confusing was that both of them are owned by the same outfit nowadays. It seems ICI was bought out by the same company that owned International. At least, ICI's paints division was, anyway.

It reminds me a little of all those famous Swiss watch companies of yesteryear. They were all bought by a Russian outfit who now rip off the rest of the world. I know because I tried to get my Breitling Navitimer overhauled and found out what was going on behind the scenes. I'm afraid the old timepiece will be sitting in a drawer from now on - until someone honest and straightforward buys Breitling off the Russki mafia anyway. :spider:

I've said it before and I'll say it again - we are living in very strange times.

Best wishes

[Philip]

mike be carefull about mixing brands , l have done in the past and got a bad reaction even on wood!!!!! and l hate painting like the finished result but not doing the job , so for me to do it twice is a aheadache!!!!!! regards phil

[Mike]

Okay, Phil, thanks for the warning. I will do a test piece first to see how they go when together.

I never ignore warnings, especially from people who've done more than me in any area I'm not sure about. The chemist chap who advised me works for International in Southampton, so I am presuming it will be fine. But better to be safe than sorry.

We have something in common with a dislike for painting. I prefer spray application and have never much liked brushes. Never seem to be able to get the finish I would like. I've always had a profound admiration for skilled spray painters. Me, I was a good pilot and a reasonable amateur chippy but I've never had any talent where painting is concerned.

Regards

[George Waite]

Mike
I have found that for occasional immersion one coat of dilute epoxy resin followed by a good undercoat and a couple of coats of "Trade" enamel is good enough. Used expensive paints on a Drascome (in a very hot part of the world) and found that the anti- fouling would only last a few months. Ended up using the evil smelling shark oil/lime mixture applied to local Dhows, it would last up to 12 months!
George

[George Waite]

Mike
That should read "wooden Drascombe"
George

[Mike]

Mike
I have found that for occasional immersion one coat of dilute epoxy resin followed by a good undercoat and a couple of coats of "Trade" enamel is good enough. Used expensive paints on a Drascome (in a very hot part of the world) and found that the anti- fouling would only last a few months. Ended up using the evil smelling shark oil/lime mixture applied to local Dhows, it would last up to 12 months!


Mike
That should read "wooden Drascombe"
GeorgeGotcha, George. I didn't pick this post up until this evening, so apologies for the delayed reply.

At the risk of sounding stupid (well, more stupid than usual), what do you mean by 'dilute epoxy resin'? My understanding is that you should not, under any circumstances, dilute epoxy by altering the mix ratio. So, if that is true, how on earth does one dilute it and with what?

There are, as you would certainly know, two part epoxy-based primers. There are also water-based epoxy primers too. I find this subject of paint interesting but terribly confusing. The chemist from International seemed to put my mind at rest but I am now wondering whether I really ought to mix an International primer with Dulux enamel undercoats and top coats. And now there seems to be yet another solution, that of using a diluted epoxy resin, presumably as a primer.

When one does some research on paint manufacturer's websites, there are loads of different products but no real detailed information like I had from International.

Perhaps I will, in the end, simply admit defeat and go the whole hog - even for a tiny 8 footer. At the end of the day, I don't expect to have to prise information out of the very people who will take my money. I only want to know what will work and what won't. The local hardware store can't tell me, Dulux shied off as soon as I mentioned a boat, and people I trust are offering alternatives I really don't know about at all. Aaaarrgh.

I really am totally confused now.

Best wishes

[George Waite]

Mike
My apologies for a late reply, I thought that my first post was lost in the ether. Answer to first question: yes you can dilute epoxy resins but only for coating/priming purposes and the higher the diluent level the greater the penetration. Resin companies produce their own diluents or you can use acetone but remember to use it quickly as the evaporation rate is high. Question 2: Yes I am aware of the existance of epoxy primers but water based epoxy primers? I am having trouble with that one as some very clever alchemy must have been performed to make the two mutually compatible. However I can always learn a little more. The main reason for my use of dilute resin as a penetrating primer is that I can coat virtually all the sheet wood for one boat in one go then put it to one side and forget about it until its ready to be cut for fabrication, it also removes the requirement for a conventional primer. One stipulation I would make and that is that the wood must be dry. I believe this method was used at De Havillands for treating Mozzie bits prior to construction (yes that long ago). The present trend in paint technology is to make everything water based if possible for "health and Safety" reasons. Insider friends in the industry tell me that it is not going so well. In the last 40 or so years of dealing with paint manufacturers/retailers/contractors I have seen a rapidly decreasing fund of products/Knowledge on the part of the aforementioned and technical staff are now of the academic persuasion rather than time served tradesmen with supplementary technical knowledge and a lot of experience. The sales staff are also to be avoided as they are more interested in selling 6 tons of M. I. O (iron oxide) to a shipyard than 6 litres to you. When it comes to wooden vessels I consult two people, one being my neighbour, a time served painter/Decorator, who (being a Salcombe lad) has spent a hell of a long time painting boats as well as houses! The other is a now retired friend in county Durham whom I have known for around 35 years. He has worked for about every paint manufacturer, and is an (unofficial) consultant to a number of big industrial painting contractors. My trusted advisors tell me that it boils down to : if you keep it on a trailer any good (oil or epoxy) paint will do, if you keep it afloat then only marine paints will do and two-packs are preferred.
George

[Mike]

Thank you, George. That last bit of advice is largely in line with what my own understanding is - or was before I started to become confused about things.

The whole subject of painting is a big yawn for me. It's the working with wood I enjoy. Painting it afterwards has never held much joy for me, though a nicely finished product can be a joy to behold - just as a poorly finished one is an abomination.

So, what enamel paints would you use and in what combination? It seems I may run into a problem if I mix brands.

Best wishes

[George Waite]

Mike
I am using Dulux "trade" exterior paints for the majority of exposed surfaces and International "Danboline" for bilges etc. For any varnishing I am using International "Goldspar" Also a local supplier to the trade sells me a top quality exterior paint from Johnstones (not a spelling mistake). These are only my choices, I do not profess to be an "Expert".

[Mike]

Gotcha, George, thank you.

Dulux 'Trade' is what was recommended to me. Now, what do you use as a primer - or do you simply paint Trade enamel undercoat directly onto the diluted epoxy sealer?

Regards

[George Waite]

Mike
Apro-po of sod all another post on this forum (epoxy repair) plus your comments have reminded me of a job that I was Consulted on in Sharjah UAE some years ago. The problem arose when someone had air blasted the Sultan of Omans beautiful wooden sail training ship with Flint grit at 150 psi @ 600cfm with disatrous results. By the time the yard supervisor discovered what was going on the damage had been done to approx 50% of the underwater surface of the vessel. The solution that I proposed (in consultation with others) was to coat the affected area with Dilute epoxy resin in sucessively higher concentrations until a final coat of resin + filler could be trowelled on (by a couple of Geordie plasterers doing a new local hotel) as a finish coat. The whole work area was encapsulated in a positive pressure dry environment to reduce the very high local humidity. The repair was sucessful (but very expensive) and the ships bottom was eventually sheathed in Monel sheeting. The resins were supplied by Shell industrial chemicals direct , I do not remember the exact quantities but the cost would have made your/my eyes water!
George

[George Waite]

Mike
Our posts crossed! Yes I do apply the undercoat directly to the (dry) dilute epoxy in fact on a smaller boat I would add a coat of undiluted epoxy before undercoating the underwater section of the hull. Again I must stress that this is only my choice.
George

[Mike]

Good grief, George. I can just imagine the cost of that little job. Ouch! What idiot did the damage, I wonder. I suppose the idea was to strip the old paint/coatings off in the fastest possible way.

So, getting back to our subject, what primer would you recommend will do the job on wood (ply) and epoxy - or have you already answered that one in recommending dilute epoxy itself as the primer? Persistent, am I not? :D

[George Waite]

Mike
Persist away mike as the written word is two-dimensional I have no problem with repeating or emphasizing something. I use the dilute epoxy as the primer as most primers are supposed to acheive partial penetration of the wood surface it seems a waste to use them if the surface has already been penetrated and sealed. Ref air blasting wood, this is regularily done but at low pressure using soda as the blast medium. It also requires someone with brains on the blast nozzle!

[Mike]

Mike
Our posts crossed! Yes I do apply the undercoat directly to the (dry) dilute epoxy in fact on a smaller boat I would add a coat of undiluted epoxy before undercoating the underwater section of the hull. Again I must stress that this is only my choice.
GeorgeOkay, thanks George. I was intending to glass the bottom of the TBs, so I may as well epoxy coat the bottom planks too while I'm at it - at least up to the waterline. JW has advised me to glass the area between frames 2 & 3 internally as well - to provide extra strength to the area on which you stand and load/unload supplies to a larger vessel.

I will paint with Dulux Trade enamel and see how she turns out.

Many thanks for sharing your experience, George. It is appreciated.

Kind regards

[Mike]

Mike
I have found that for occasional immersion one coat of dilute epoxy resin followed by a good undercoat and a couple of coats of "Trade" enamel is good enough. Used expensive paints on a Drascome (in a very hot part of the world) and found that the anti- fouling would only last a few months. Ended up using the evil smelling shark oil/lime mixture applied to local Dhows, it would last up to 12 months!
GeorgeGoing back a page or so, I found this post of yours, George. So, you did already answer my question. Sincere apologies:imsorry:.

It's possibly old age but probably more down to being somewhat distracted. All bar one of my family are busy researching immigration websites at the moment and are calling out airfares, the cost of houses overseas, and so on and so forth. It seems I am not alone in being a touch fed up.

[George Waite]

Mike
Dont let one bunch of ******* neighbours drive you out of your own country. My dad used to say that stress was what you gave other people! Anyway here is a hot tip on primers. A consensus of friendly boatbuilders/painters in Darmouth/Salcombe/Plymouth suggests a Dutch product made by Epifanes called Werdol wood primer. It is supposed to be compatable with any undercoat, it retails for around £15 per litre and is supposed to be thoroughly good stuff.

[Mike]

Thank you kindly for that excellent tip, George. I shall look into that one.

As to our problem with the neighbours, it is not the sole cause of our discontent, of course. And we will think very carefully before taking any steps that lead us again far from England.

I think perhaps we are far from alone in the way we feel at present. In fact, I have a sneaking suspicion that there is going to be a class war here, the way things are shaping up. The French had the right idea when they lopped off the heads of the leeches and hangers-on in their country.

'Let them eat cake' is not too far removed from some of the things we are watching happen around us today. One bit of encouraging news was that it seems Tony Blair is unlikely to get backing from any other country besides our own in his scheming, self-aggrandizing, attempt to become the first 'President of the European Council'.

What amazes me in this regard is that Gordon Brown actually backs him. Astonishing, to say the least.

Regards

[George Waite]

Mike
The time for a class war would have been back in 1927 when a whole generation of people had come back from an appalling war to find that the "land fit for heroes" was still being run/misrun by the same bloated parasites that sent them off to die in the millions and were incapable of running the nation's finances. We are a nation of patient people (unfortunately) being misruled by "thatcherspawn". I do not think things will alter until wealth is more fairly distrubuted in this country,(by force if necessary) 90% of the wealth owned by 10% of the population can never be right. We also have an archaic political system that borders on feudal with no written constitution, no proportional representation, and no workable bill of rights or freedom of informatiom. In short we do not have any of the prerequisites of a functioning democracy. Gordon brown I fear, is proceeding on the basis of "better the devil you know" with his support for Bambi.
George

[Mike]

Totally agree with every single word you wrote there, George. You left out our legal system, so misguidedly mimicked elsewhere in the western world. Now if that ain't feudal then I don't know what is.

I have a soft spot for the French legal system. Far superior to our own, in my view, and better suited to adminstering justice compared with our artifical constructs that protect property rights far more than human rights. In order to exercise property rights, you need, of course, to have some worth protecting in the first place. And, again as you so rightly say, 90% of property here is in the hands of 10% of our population.

It cannot go on this way for very much longer, surely. Sooner or later something will happen to turn the far too patient English into the warriors they are when their backs are against the wall. Sadly, I am not sure I will be around long enough to actually see that happen. But I feel sure my children will be.

Respect!

[George Waite]

Mike
I am sure that I do not have to tell you that our legal system suits the lawyers and the home secretary very nicely thank you. With no bill of rights etc they can run a very profitable adverserial system and the H. S. can overrule the law whenever it suits him. Your comments re the French system are interesting, I also have some respect for Scots law and the much maligned Shariah laws, (some personal experience here and I am not advocating their use in UK). Anyway we are on the wrong section of the forum here, better move before the moderator jumps on us.
George

[Mike]

You are extremely knowledgeable, George, and I again agree with you completely. My own view is that the vast majority of lawyers are evil *******s with nobody's interests but their own at heart. I've met perhaps one or two in my time who actually practised their profession for the reasons that it was founded historically. They are the minute exception, though. I have personal experience with lawyers who lie to the very same courts in which they hold office. I suppose I should not have been shocked but I certainly became rather disillusioned with my reading of the law and its complex rules.

I don't know much about Shariah law but I too have a lot of respect for the Scottish system. Streets ahead of the English. My favoured system is the inquisitorial method practised by the French. It seeks to apply justice rather than law and it is not, as you seem to know, adversarial.

Our legal system is, again as you rightly say, convenient for the haves. The have nots simply cannot afford access to it. And lawyers skilled at working for the benefit of the haves can very easily become vastly wealthy in their own lifetimes - before they become judges and rip off the English taxpayer into their retirement (which is not governed by the same rules as the rest of us either).

I am happy to talk about these matters anywhere on the board - but I think I will move these threads to another forum. Don't want to upset the thread starter or the Admin. :D

Regards

[Dave Snelling]

Mark’s article was spot on. The only thing I would add, regardless of painting system used; is not only vacuum and wipe the boat but also every surface in the workshop. Give the ceiling & walls a brush, mop the floor, wipe the workbench. It makes a big difference, any dust in the area will ruin your topcoats!

[Mike]

Thanks for that tip, Dave. I will certainly bear it in mind when I start painting. Of course, my shelter is rather exposed, so I will try to pick a day when winds are very light.

Some years ago, I put eighteen coats of ivory white on a restored Mark IX Jaguar, all done in the open air. By choosing the right days, I managed to avoid any dust problems.

It also helps to wet down the floors before painting, though the area should be fairly dry when doing the job or the moisture can cause problems of itself.

Best wishes

[Mike]

I had an email from JW last night. He had, among other things, been reading this thread on paints and raised an important point.

It is necessary for us to understand that other countries use different terminology to ourselves and, as John says, Americans think of 'house paint' as the kind of paint that you wash your brushes afterwards using WATER. This is not what John was referring to when speaking of 'house paint'.

John's 'house paint' - and ours in the UK too - is the alkyd oil based enamel. This type of exterior enamel is the type which you thin or clean your brushes using mineral turpentine (turps), not water. Water based paints simply cannot be used on a boat - and for obvious reasons.

I learned this myself recently when I was told by a so-called 'expert' that modern water based paints are fine for painting the walls of a bathroom. Hah! My family of six, all used to taking a shower every day, steamed the paint off the walls quicker than you can blink. And what a mess it became, all blisters and peeling off like bark off a tree. I am going to have to remove it all, re-seal, and paint using an oil based enamel. :Christo_pull_hair: I will know it's right by looking on the tin to see whether I clean up brushes using water or turps!!! :)

Best wishes

[Bruce Peckett]

Blimey, a thread I can make a contribution to already!

Mixing paints of one type but from different manufacturers ... best avoided but not usually a problem in my experience.

Mixing paints of different types .... BIG no no! Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Stripping 60 feet of 3 foot high cabin side x 2 back down to bare metal = no fun at all. (T'wasn't my fault though, somebody told me a porky about what undercoat they'd used so I'd inadvertently used precisely the wrong topcoat)

Two pack paint systems are brilliant if you can get 'em on right but not for the faint hearted. Not, IMO, a viable option for the backyard builder. Ambient conditions critical for a good outcome - temp and humidity need to be right.

We used to use Dulux Weathershield or the trade version thereof a lot on the topsides of narrowboats and it goes on good and lasts well. We then switched to Masons which was just as good and a lot cheaper but is now no more apparently. I'm puzzled by the guy saying Dulux Trade would outlast Weathershield 'cos as far as I could ever tell, it's the same stuff!

Brush application can achieve a near perfect finish almost as good as spraying - it's all in the laying off. Paint it on evenly always working in one direction (up and down or side to side, never both at once) then work back over it at 90 degrees to the brush marks with a lightly loaded brush just as the paint starts to tack off. You can lay off a third time with very light strokes of an almost dry brush in the original direction and so on. The trick is the timing of it - you've got to lay off the already painted work before it tacks off too much and get back to painting the next bit before the edge dries.

Don't try and pick out dust particles or the damned little black flies that always commit suicide into any freshly painted surface. Wait until the paint is thoroughly dry and if it's not the finish coat gently rub with fine wet and dry (dry) or if it's the finish coat gently rub with T-Cut on a very soft cloth and unless they're big motes they'll vanish before your very eyes.

BTW, it's worth remembering that whilst on a car we'd want a perfect mirror finish, this rarely looks right on a boat - 'specially not a wooden one. The more eggshell finish you tend to get with a brush just somehow looks better to me. Oh and I'm not averse to using a roller to whack on paint quickly over a large area. If your brush technique is a bit iffy a roller might be a better way to go. Trouble is that with enamel paints you don't half go through rollers! They rarely clean up well enough for a second bought of fine work.

HTH
Bru

[Mike]

Brilliant! And right at the most critical moment for me. Thanks, Bruce. Love this post and have given you some rep for it. :approval:

[Bruce Peckett]

Enough of my design connundrums :) ... how did the painting go?

[Mike]

Your timing is immaculate, Bru. I have just put the first primer coat on the bottom and two planks of the little TB and will post some piccies later this evening.

I had one minor snag - and not a common one here in England. The side of the hull that was bathed in sunlight dried faster than I could blink, despite it being thinned 10% (like it says on the can!). Apart from that, it went well.

What I love about the first primer coat is that it confirms what hard work you've done - or not done - in the fairing and prep stage. There are just a few little spots I missed, as you will see in the pics later tonight (see my Blog). No probs, though. I'll get to them later. It's really nice to see a coat of paint on (some of) her at last. Can't wait to see young Sherry clambering aboard for some real fun. Quite a way to go yet but we now have the right weather for me to crack on with it. Yay!