Gorilla Glue

[Mike E]

Hi y'all, Mike E here. Just joined and this is my first post.

I've read the epoxy glue thread with interest, maybe this post should be in there, but as it's about a non epoxy alternative I thought I should stick on a fresh one, as it were.

I came across mention of this glue in a NZ forum, http://www.woodenboat.net.nz/Workshop/Workshoptips/Holdfastfolder/Gorillaglue.html

.......Gorilla Glue is a single component, polyurethane, moisture cure adhesive that will glue almost anything. It requires no mixing, and cures when moisture in the air and in the material reacts with the glue and causes it to cure. As the glue cures a gap-filling foam will appear and self spread.
Gorilla Glue is 100% solids and contains no solvents. Thus, when cured there will be no shrinkage. One of the most important attributes is that it is 100% waterproof.......

.........From my workshop
by John Welsford.
When I started building boats I used Aerolite 300 glue, or if it was a serious job, 305 (the water resistant one!). Later, about the time I built my first ‘big’ boat, a 6-metre trailer yacht, Phenol formaldehyde in the form of Resorcinol glue was the thing to use, and I still use quite a lot of it. But then along came the Epoxy systems with their all singing and all dancing pump dispensers and additives and the other stuff almost vanished off the shelves.
Of late though, other glues have begun to appear in very specialised applications, and are gradually becoming accepted in general woodworking. I was recently offered a sample of GORILLA GLUE from Hamilton manufacturer Holdfast manufacturing, and had it strongly recommended by a joiner specialising in high-grade wooden house joinery. He does quite a lot of marine work and although commenting that it needs a slight change of method in cleaning up is very happy with the product.......

[Mike E]

I should have said, of course, that all the threads I've read so far have been interesting.

Mike E :approval:

[Mike]

Hi Mike E and welcome, once again, to BBB. :)

An interesting first post. Gorilla Glue is very similar stuff to another polyurethane adhesive sold for marine applications called Balcotan.

While it has its uses, and despite what you have attributed to John W, I would be reluctant to use either Balcotan or Gorilla Glue in my own boat. In fact, if I was looking for an epoxy alternative, I think I would be inclined to go the route of the Aerolite or Aerodux methods that John mentioned (Aerodux is the later development, with significant advantages over Aerolite).

Although these PU glues are said to have gap-filling properties, they rely on the foaming product to fill the gaps, which means that the adhesive in the gap is full of little air bubbles and is less strong. As I understand it, both PUs need a good, tight, joint and sufficient clamping pressure to work well. This is somewhat opposite to the best properties of epoxy.

There is an old adage that goes something like: 'epoxy loves a gap and hates a tight joint' - or words to that effect. Thus, for the average backyard boatbuilder, epoxy will build you a better boat simply because it bridges gaps without losing any strength in the joint. And where it won't do the job, Aerodux will certainly provide a stronger bond than any PU adhesive. It's an aviation-grade glue and has many advantages over epoxy - provided your joining ability is reasonably good.

I have it from the experts that PU adhesives are fine if you are building a stripper, for example, and intend to then sheath the whole thing in fibreglass and epoxy. And it is indeed waterproof. However, I would not personally recommend its use in any situation in which you seek ultimate strength. I would perhaps use it for internal fitting out within the hull but not in the hull itself. Just my own view, of course, for what it's worth.

Best wishes

[Mike]

Mike

Further to my last on PU adhesives, I thought you might find the analysis attached below interesting. It was done on behalf of the UK Health & Safety Executive with regard to allergic reactions to epoxies.


368

It's rather a long document but would be interesting to anyone tossing up about epoxies versus other adhesives. It's one of the reasons I started looking around for alternatives myself - and there certainly are other glues that can do the job provided your woodworking skill is sufficient and you have plenty of clamps - of different types - available to apply adequate clamping pressure to the work while gluing up.

Perhaps the most problematic aspect of epoxy use is that you can, with time, develop skin reactions that are very serious and rather debilitating. And the attached analysis discusses various ways and means of using it without developing such problems.

Anyway, it's a good read if you have the time to plough through it. Maybe print out a copy and hang it behind the toilet door! Ha ha.

Best wishes

[Mike E]

Good morning Admiral :-)

Thank you for the donation of loo decoration.

The quote I attributed to John W was copied from the web page I gave a link to, if you want to read the quote in full.

I've started a 1/4 scale model of the boat I would like to build (more info to follow in due course) and think maybe I'll pursue the Gorilla option for the model.

All the best,

Mikey

[Mike]

Oh dear me, Mikey, I do not enjoy being addressed by a rank but, if you insist, I was an airline 'Captain'. 'Admiral' has an air of pomposity about it that would get right up my commoner nose.

As to 'loo decoration', most things produced by government actually belong in the thunderbox rather than just adorning its compartmental walls. However, that veritable tome - goodness knows how much it cost the taxpayer - does have some interesting food for thought in it. Please note it is Crown Copyright. It never ceases to amaze me that we are involuntarily required to pay for things to be produced and then asked for further payment or prior permission to read 'em. Every time I nick something with that claim on it, I get this delicious feeling of having struck a blow for justice. Heh heh.

Back to glues: yes indeed, I would stick (pun intended) to using PU glues for making your models if I were you - UNLESS you are a highly skilled carpenter/joiner, in which case you are a far better man than I, Gunga Din, and should use whatever your expertise tells you is best.

Just one question, if I may: why build a 1/4 scale model? If you are doing that then you might perhaps just build the full scale job and have done with it.

Best wishes

[Mike E]

Hi Mike, Captain of the Good Ship British Backyard Boatbuilding doesn't sound quite right somehow, if you don't like Admiral then how about Commodore? LOL. Anyway, don't want to upset the Capt'n so Skipper it is then. LOL.

I'm not a "highly skilled carpenter/joiner", far from it, indeed this is my first such project!

Having found plans for my dream boat on the net, I e-mailed to ask if they would scale them for me, ideally at 1:6, big enough to see if I could handle the construction techniques, but small enough to fit in a car if I decided to fit radio control and go and have a play.

They replied that they could, I sent off details of the plastic and several days later the plans arrived on my computer.

An architect friend kindly printed them out on his A1 whizzy machine and I set to.

It was only when I printed out the set up jig which arrived seperately that I realised the scale was wrong, the original 29' 10" boat had become 39'.

Unfortunately the supplier hasn't replied to my e-mails, so I am now building a 4.53:1 model !!

I'm not the sharpest tool in the toolbox, maybe someone will be able to explain if I've got the above wrong, but in the words of my dear late father-in-law, I shall "Carry on, clueless and regardless".

The main reason for the scale model first was not receiving clearance to build the full size one from Management........she knows me too well!

I'm getting there though, worked a nice flanker last weekend. Bought a donor for the full size one, a tatty ex competition ski boat with all the necessary running gear, 5.7 litre Chevy, marine gearbox, rack and pinion steering, propshaft, prop, rudder etc.

Prop probably won't be the right size but it'll do to get a better idea of the right one, I understand sizing props is a bit of a "black art".

You'll have gathered by now that my project is a powerboat, a recreation of a 1920's classic.

I hope powerboats are acceptable for the forum, I note that most projects are man or sail powered.

Much of this post is tongue in cheek, but I can't see how to post those smiley thingys, told you I wasn't the sharpest tool!

Best regards

Mikey (Mike .E)

[Mike]

Hi Mike, Captain of the Good Ship British Backyard Boatbuilding doesn't sound quite right somehow, if you don't like Admiral then how about Commodore? LOL. Anyway, don't want to upset the Capt'n so Skipper it is then. LOL.Mikey (like that!), what you call me matters not provided you don't assign a rank. I am notorious for having little regard for title except when it will gain me some financial advantage (of course). Think it has something to do with my socialist tendencies. ;)


I'm not a "highly skilled carpenter/joiner", far from it, indeed this is my first such project!You've joined a club where very few of us are, so please do feel at home among us amateurs. We have a couple of qualified types as members, so we can always seek advice when we need it. Mind you, getting advice from Audrey could end you up in some hot water (no offence, Audrey, me old mate!). Heh heh. :D

As to your model boat, whatever turns you on. Why so secretive about the design? Is it so famous that we should have guessed what it is or so obscure that none of us would know it when you do name it?

I like the idea of building a model first, provided the build is the same way she's built in the flesh, so to speak. That said, I've never done it, preferring to expend my energy on the real thing and just handling any problems that arise as and when.

Motor boats are just as welcome here as any other design. We considered a motor sailer ourselves for a while but, as our kids grew up, their wish to sail with us sort of disappeared in the frenzy of their teenage impulses and we soon realized we didn't need a big boat for what will mainly be just the two of us on our cruises. We also got eco-friendly and decided to go the whole hog for wind power rather than engines. We will carry an outboard motor for use in the canals/rivers of Europe but in open water we will be under sail.

A 5.7 litre Chevy engine will be a thirsty beast. I presume it burns petrol rather than diesel? Interesting. Can't wait to hear what the design is and some more detail on what you plan to use her for.

Oh, I almost forgot. The smilies displayed to the right of your posting window will insert wherever you leave your cursor just by clicking on one. In the bottom left corner of the smiley window is the word 'More' between brackets. It's not easy to see but it is there. If you click on that word and wait a bit, a new window opens which you can expand and reveal a whole lot more smilies. Again, place your cursor in the text where you want the smiley to appear and then click on your choice. Simple really - when you know how. Enjoy!

Best wishes

[Mike E]

Hi Mike,

In reverse order,

I'm not quite so dense as I assumed, I've been replying by clicking the "Quick" option, and no smilies are offered!

The engine just acquired has been converted to run on gas (lpg), I'm in two minds whether to refit a carb or leave it as it is.

Was I coming over as secretive? If so, not intentionally.

I guess I was avoiding having to work out how to transfer the pictures I have of her on my other computer.

I'll have to get my son to show me how to transfer the images.

I must emphasise however, the only thing I've actually committed to yet in my own mind is the model (ok I know I've bought the donor, but it was at a good price and should sell on alright).

I'm new to this forum, and I don't want to come on here with the big I am.

One step at a time, many a slip twix't cup and lip....etc.

Yours humbly

Mikey.

[Mike]

Nobody here is 'dense' in my view, Mikey. Anyone with enough good sense to want to build their own boat is undoubtedly a smart cookie in my eyes. ;)

Yes, you need to click either the 'Reply' button or 'Go Advanced' below the Quick Reply window to get access to all the functions that tart up a post - including smilies. Personally, I tend to click on the 'Quote' or 'Multi' then 'Quote' buttons. That enables me to read what I am replying to without scrolling off the posting window. Just personal preference, of course.

I imagine the previous owner of the donor vessel converted to LPG to save on fuel outlay. Personally, I would be very wary of installing petrol or LPG on any boat I owned, unless I was intending to race it. Just one huge fire risk and not something suitable for carefree cruising. However, in the case of the boat you have in mind, I guess an Hispano Suiza aero engine is out of the question these days! He he.

I agree she is a beautiful boat, especially so since she was built of the best material known to humankind. That said, I would also agree with your family member to some extent in that her hull does indeed look rather like a canoe or a kayak. So what, I ask myself? Canoes and kayaks are mighty quick boats when propelled by manpower and even quicker when powered by the internal combustion engine.

This will be a mighty project, Mikey, and I think it will be fantastic to watch you build her. I, for one, would love to be there on the day she first gets her bottom wet. I imagine that will be some time away but you have to start with the dream first, don't you. Go for it, mate. If that's what rings your bell then you really must build her.

Please do post those pics when you get your son to transfer them.

New or not, Mikey, there is no need whatsoever to be humble here. Just be yourself and let rip. One of the reasons I insist on membership applications is to test whether people are prepared to be up front and honest. If not, they don't become a member here. I am confident that our members are all quite exceptional people who are not the kind to put each other down in any way. The world has far too many of that type and we really don't want 'em on this website.

Personally, Mikey, I love your dream and will do whatever I can to encourage you to fulfil it. Like I said, go for it. We are all behind you. :approval:

Best wishes

[Philip]

Hi mike e , welcome mate, look forward to hearing about your project. l agree with mike that engine sounds thirsty m8!! you will have to have long pockets and cheap wife lol!, pu glues have there place but never below the waterline. l would and only use them gunnels up . regards phil

[Mike E]

Hi Philip, thanks for the welcome. Yes, the Chevy is going to be very thirsty, but it fits the image of the boat I have in mind..........it can't be all show and no go :).

Message rec'd re glue, I'm not sure I'll even use pu for the model, the full size boat (IF I go ahead and build her) will be epoxy (WEST) with laquered finish, so I should really use this system on the model, as part of my learning experience.

Regards


Mikey

[Mike]

Message rec'd re glue, I'm not sure I'll even use pu for the model, the full size boat (IF I go ahead and build her) will be epoxy (WEST) with laquered finish, so I should really use this system on the model, as part of my learning experience.Mikey, there's no harm in using a PU for the model, not least because it is much less expensive than epoxy. If the money matters are not too important, then by all means use West System for the practice. Otherwise, PU will do a fine job of the model without costing an arm and a leg. Me, I try to keep my epoxy use down to as little as possible - within the constraints of my being a rank amateur. Forking out some £300.00 for the big pack of West is something I will always try to do as infrequently as possible without being daft about it.

If you are not experienced with epoxy use, particularly West System, I would recommend 'The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction'. It would be the best £30 or so you've spent for some time and it is widely viewed as 'the bible' on using epoxy to build boats - of every description (except models I think).

I have a copy and find it extremely helpful, though it is so big that I tend to use it as a reference book in which to look up particular aspects. I'm not the type to sit reading a whole lot of technical material from front to back cover - unless I really must in order to pass an exam or something. I've done far too much of that in my former employment to want to repeat the exercise in my retirement. I work purely on the basis of 'need to know' these days and forego the 'nice to know' bits for others to fill their heads with.

Best wishes

[Clip]

Interesting subject, and one I'm trying to figure out at this time.
For fastening and gluing my deck I'm using 3M's 5200. But I was wondering about wood joints as for beams and for laminating beams. In the past I used Epoxy and Epoxy paste combo's for this but further reading reading recently suggests this is not the best approach.

[Mike]

Hi Clip

When laminating beams for boats (cabin roof or decking), one is often building them with curvature. This means clamping - and epoxy is not best suited for joints that are under high clamping pressure as most of it is squeezed out, leaving you with a weak joint. PU glues actually need clamping pressure to create strength, so they are possibly better than epoxy.

Personally, I would look at using Aerolite or Aerodux, perhaps the old resorcinol, rather than epoxy. These beams are above the waterline anyway and are usually painted or varnished. You could also glue 'em up using a PU glue and then encapsulate in epoxy afterwards, finishing off with a few coats of Epifanes for clear work.

Just my two penneth, of course. :)

Best wishes

[Clip]

Mike E

I can certainely understand building a model. I started into boat building after building R/C boat models. The guys in the local boat modeling club are fantastic with their skill. They are doing models for museums, and sail them as well. After my 2nd model I realized building a model took as much time as the real thing.

However I did do a model with my current Whaler project. It allowed me to visualize what I wanted, and to try out ideas with a low cost. It did help me alot and helped with concepts. see blog at
http://www.backyardboatbuilding.org.uk/forums/blog.php?b=9