insurance et al

[Arthor]

Greetings,
looged on for a nosey and to ask a question, spotted the RCD thread and got sidetracked, half way through the thread and got a headache let alone reading the pdfs etc. I heartily support any initiatives by members regarding the alleviation of any of the difficulties that the law imposes.
Having done some reading on that thread my question has grown a bit.
I am unsure as to the disctinction between Cat A,B and C. I thought that they were 'suitable for use' terms for sellers of boats. Would I need to get such a cat cert for a home built boat, either when I want to put it in the water or maybe sell it 5 years down the line? Anglers go more thn 5Nm offshore in 18 footers.

I will probably go for a SF Power 3, one of the Bateau designs or a Tolman Skiff. As far as I am concerned, in the right hands and in the right weather, they are easily good for a channel hop. It is my intention to "do Europe", coast hop north, Kiel canal, Baltic wherever my fancy takes me. I am now getting worried that the freedom my retirement would give me will be drastically curtailed by red tape.

I am happy to have someone check my build but at what frequency? How much does it cost and will I need it for insurance? I am worried by the 24' mention. Is there a limit before a certain rule comes into play. Bit daft as I have heard it tell that the larger Normans are suitable only for inland but an 18 or 20 is fine offshore.

I just don't want to find a few years down the road that my pride and joy won't be allowed in the water and even if it was, I would get impounded by a Norwegian in a ffjord (fancy going there as well) or German on the Mittland Canal cos I built my boat and didn't spend 50k on a 'recognised' boat.
Anyone know whats what??

regards

arthor

[Mike]

Greetings,
looged on for a nosey and to ask a question, spotted the RCD thread and got sidetracked, half way through the thread and got a headache let alone reading the pdfs etc. I heartily support any initiatives by members regarding the alleviation of any of the difficulties that the law imposes.
Having done some reading on that thread my question has grown a bit.
I am unsure as to the disctinction between Cat A,B and C. I thought that they were 'suitable for use' terms for sellers of boats. Would I need to get such a cat cert for a home built boat, either when I want to put it in the water or maybe sell it 5 years down the line? Anglers go more thn 5Nm offshore in 18 footers.Hi Arthor. You have asked a number of questions in your post, so here goes with attempting to answer them for you.

The differences are detailed in the 'Guide' at post#21 here (http://www.backyardboatbuilding.org.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=77&page=3), but to save you from another headache, the categories read as follows:

A. OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above, and vessels largely self-sufficient.

B. OFFSHORE: Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 m may be experienced.

C. INSHORE: Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2 m may be experienced.

D. SHELTERED WATERS: Designed for voyages on small lakes, rivers, and canals where conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0.5 m may be experienced.

Boats in each category must be designed and constructed to withstand these parameters in respect of stability, buoyancy, and other relevant essential requirements listed in Annex I, and to have good handling characteristics.

I will probably go for a SF Power 3, one of the Bateau designs or a Tolman Skiff. As far as I am concerned, in the right hands and in the right weather, they are easily good for a channel hop. It is my intention to "do Europe", coast hop north, Kiel canal, Baltic wherever my fancy takes me. I am now getting worried that the freedom my retirement would give me will be drastically curtailed by red tape.Your plans are not inhibited in any real sense by the RCD. For example, I have it on good authority that you could have a boat that is suitable only for Cat 'D' but no law can prevent you from sailing it to the Azores or even across the Atlantic. Of course, common sense would hopefully ensure you did not do that.

The problems are in you selling your build within 5 years of putting it into 'first use'. If you attempt to sell it within that time, you will be breaking the law UNLESS your boat is certified as compliant with one of the categories. It is possible, of course, to obtain certification after the build and use of the boat for some time. But remember this very important point: the buyer is not the law breaker. You are as the builder. Moral of the story: build the boat, do what you like with it (within the realm of reason) and don't sell it before the time has expired. Otherwise, bite the bullet and build it to comply with one of the categories and do what is needed to have it certified so that you can sell it any time you want.

I am happy to have someone check my build but at what frequency? How much does it cost and will I need it for insurance? I am worried by the 24' mention. Is there a limit before a certain rule comes into play. Bit daft as I have heard it tell that the larger Normans are suitable only for inland but an 18 or 20 is fine offshore.You only need certification once. How much it costs depends to a large extent upon which category you are going for. It's a bit like asking how long is a piece of string. And the length of a boat is no guide as to it's suitability for one purpose or another. There are many criteria for each category.

I just don't want to find a few years down the road that my pride and joy won't be allowed in the water and even if it was, I would get impounded by a Norwegian in a ffjord (fancy going there as well) or German on the Mittland Canal cos I built my boat and didn't spend 50k on a 'recognised' boat.Can't actually see that happening, Arthor. Mind you, what is true today may not be so in five years from now. Nonetheless, I have not heard of such a thing happening to anyone yet. If I'm wrong, then I would love to hear the details myself. Jeannette and I have very similar plans to your own.

Best wishes

[Arthor]

Thanks very much for that input Mike.

The reason I wondered about getting an inspection was that if someone hasn't seen it being built then I am not sure how they can decide that it is up to standard. Maybe things like reciepts to show the use of the correct materials? In build photos?.
One thing I did find odd was that if someone has not done a very good build as far as bonding, glassing etc goes then isn't the 5 year point (especially if it has spent a lot of time on the water) when any deficiencies would come to light? Water getting into the wood. Delaminating?

Thanks again.
Hope both our plans come to fruition.

arthor

[Mike]

My pleasure, Arthor. I hope it has eased your concern a little.

Yes, you would certainly be wise to keep a very careful record of the build. You could, of course, get in touch with GWSurvey who has boned up on the requirements. The biggest problem (and a huge expense) is getting hold of the relevant British Standards. You can have GW check your build and advise you for a moderate fee. Speak to Richard there. He is very helpful and understands the issues for us backyardies.

Your point on the five year rule is of course valid. However, the real reason the five year rule exists is a fob-off to protests from the backyard boatbuilders here. I think they perhaps protested a little too quietly. In my view, if a boat is badly built, it will very likely show that from the outset. Five years down the track, it is likely to not exist any more - except in Davey Jones' Locker! :rofl:

I think the five year rule is punitive in that many builders want to sell their build and do another. This rule prevents them from realising their investment until it is likely to be depreciated to an extent that they can't recover it in any worthwhile quantum. That, in my view, is unfair. This nation has had a large backyard boatbuilding community for very many years. And, to put it bluntly, many a backyardie will build a boat that is better than many of those built by professionals. For many of us, the woodworking skills are just a part of it - and we have far more time to build than any professional I know of.

Best of luck with your endeavour. I look forward to seeing your build.

Best wishes